Re: HONOR (celebrate their integrity?) your parents??? or give them the recognition they deserve?

hi #49861!

i have some comments, so i'm typing them in caps (not to seem aggressive, so please pardon!) i will insert some comments of mine within the body of your text, ok?


of course, forgiveness has therapeutic value for the victim, but it can also make the victim an unwitting accomplice in the future repitition of the offender's deed.

>>>>perhaps you are confusing what i am saying with something else. if we hold an account of wrongs and have something in our heart against someone, believing that they have transgressed against us (and therefore god), then we need to release that. we need to forgive that debt with the supernatural assistance and power of the holy spirit. that is a command---- and the essence of the parable i spoke of in matt 18. to do less is to violate supernatural law that god set into place, and therefore reap a consequence. the consequence has more to do with us than it does wtih the other person. it would seem from your writings that you are worrying a lot about teaching reprobates a lesson, and not as much about dealing with the root of a wounded person's pain...sort of trivializing the 'therapeutic value' for the victim. forgiveness has immense therapeutic value, as jesus himself said so. he said that we would not be turned over the the tormentors - by harboring unforgiveness and holding that certificate of debt against them, we would actually establish legal rights for the demonic to invade and control some aspect of our life. i'm not saying possession, rather 'demonization'. some level of it.

re becoming an unwitting accomplice:

let's say you held a gun to my head and robbed me, and then stabbed me. under the laws of the land, i should prosecute for the sake of civil order, justice and the safety of other individuals. but if i start hating and judging you because of it, i nuture hatred in my heart and allow it to fester like an open wound. if i do not get free of it, it will worsen and also carry down the generational line to my offspring. i would need to give judgment to god (revenge is mine, sayeth the lord, i will repay--love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you). i need to cancel the debt and account of wrongdoing in my heart against you, and just release that. whether or not i ever see you again!! so, it's not my responsibility to teach you a lesson. or get revenge. my responsbility is to be a clean and open vessel for god's spirit to fill and dwell and run over like an overflowing cup. choosing any other path (hatred, anger, rage, unforgiveness, jealosy, strife, factions, etc...only results in my being a cup of 'works of the flesh' and not an overflowing cup set apart for the 'fruit of the spirit').

the scripture i keep referring to in matt 18 says that we have been forgiven a great debt by god, and how dare we keep an account of a teeny little debt in comparison. with god's help i can forgive you and release that in myself. you may not even be there to ever know what i did or hear it. but -- i can -- get free w/o even speaking with you about it. and absent any other leading of the lord, i probably would do well to never speak with you again because you are a bad dude that robs and stabs people!!! (i hope people read and understand the whole post here and don't think that i am really saying this to you! he he he) lol
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since the victim would become an unwitting accomplice, the victim could not be held accountable, but, realizing this, the victim does have a responsibility to all of humanity (and themselves) not to be an enabler and allow misdeeds to continue. when i do something that hurts someone's feelings or causes them inconvenience, i don't ask forgiveness, since my priority is their well being (not whether they forgive me or not, my forgiveness from god doesn't depend on them), i care about the consequences, pain and suffering they must endure and that i learn not to be so careless and clumsy. i am secure in my forgiveness from the lord.

>>>the scripture says 'confess your sins one to another that ye may be healed. again, forgiving someone and drawing boundaries are two different areas. always forgive (forgive us our sins/trespasses, as we forgive the sins/trespasses of others--where did i hear that before??) but i agree with you that we don't have to enable someone to continue to sin. we are, however, commanded to forgive...if we name the name of christ and have his spirit in our hearts and his torah/word/laws/commands written upon our hearts. we have our hearts set upon what the spirit desires, and will reap life and peace.

each situation is different.

>>>yes, each situation is different, but we are always commanded to forgive unilaterally no matter what we decide to do about continuing to have relationship / fellowship with another human being. god will take care of teaching them a lesson, if necessary. he will also take care of blessing me for my obedience if i do what i am supposed to do on my part.

it's all about eradicating the legal rights of the devil in our lives. if we sin, we give demons the right to inhabit us. if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. there is benefit in the latter...

if someone wrongs me and they are of reprobate mind, if i forgive them on the spot without also teaching them remorse, then they will, almost assuredly, commit that same offense again either against myself (wrong me once, shame on you, wrong me twice, shame on me) or someone else.

>>>you seem to have this clear set-apart category of 'reprobate mind' in your class system. ??? scripture is very clear that we are a people of unclean lips, and that our throats are open sepulchres. sounds pretty reprobate to me. if our minds are set upon the flesh, we will reap destruction no matter if we have been born again of the spirit or not. if our mind is set upon the spirit, we will reap life and peace. (romans 8) we have to be very careful about categorizing sin---the lord hates a haughty look and gossiping as much or more than those other sins which violate the written laws of our land (murder, robbery, assault, rape etc.) any sin violating the commands of scripture will set you up and give legal rights for demons and lead to demonization. for any of us.

advising someone else to forgive the person who hurt them is not wrong (because it does have therapeutic value and is also a requirement of the lord), but it is inconsiderate and uncompassionate because you are not showing sufficient respect for them and acknowledging what they have and will endure. it is up to them to eventually work things out properly with the lord.

>>>i think your point is well-taken regarding being careful how you tell someone to forgive in a situation where they are already wounded and have to endure more and more consequences of someone else's evil actions and evil inclinations. it is a delicate situation when someone is the victim of wrongdoing. i try to be gentle and help to be an agent and facilitator of that process, and when ministering to someone it is possible to be sensitive to the holy spirit and allow transformation to occur as god wills in that moment. it's a process (as i said earlier, layer by layer sometimes, and you cannot rush that. the person does need to work at their pace with the lord's leading. i do agree! if i remember, some of the posts in this thread early on were harsh with this young gal...and would make her feel more wounded wtih condemnation rather than feeling light and free. your point is well-taken there.

new testament christianity is all about personal relationships (with the lord and his children), not bureaucratic compliance and regimentation like the pharisees. new testament christianity is a life led by the spirit, not by the text (don't have a personal relationship with the bible).

i agree that god wants us to walk in the vertical relationship with him as well as the horizontal relationship with others. however at the same time, he is the word. jesus said his words are spirit, and they are life. he came to fulfill all of torah/the word. he is the word made flesh....and that word has been written on our hearts. there isn't an opportunity to separate the word from the spirit.

now that we have been born-again by his spirit, we are free to obey all his commands. we can look at a command and have an inner desire and capability to perform what it says. formerly, sin in our flesh caused us to rebel at the command. but he has conquered sin, death and the grave at the cross, and has nailed the debt to the cross. we died there with him--having wiped out the certificate of debt and the handwriting of requirements that was against us, having nailed it to the cross. as it is written:

colossians 2
13 and you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. and he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

it's all for the purpose of: destroying the works of the devil in our lives. we need to forgive to relinquish their legal rights in us, thereby allowing us to live in resurrection power in the spirit.

then the word is made flesh, dwelling--within--us.....!


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