Re: Loquat...

Refreshed you said, "I was relieved to find out that you did believe there was a thing called hell, but I had never heard of anyone claiming that you burn and die and that's all there was to the event. It didn't even make sense to me why that would even be an issue to debate, but it was very important to you to discuss it."

Well what doesn't make sense to me is why that wouldn't be an issue to debate. I mean eternal death vs. eternal torment (again have you ever thought that through, really thought it through, ever?) Is there not an enormous difference between those two concepts?

You make it sound as though it's just a small detail, what's the big deal?lol So yeah, that's what doesn't make sense to me. Talk about different brain-styles. :)

I was talking to my dad tonight. He was telling me the story of when he got badly burned in his twenties. He was very seriously burned and thought he was going to die. He was in the hospital for many months. I've heard the story before but not quite like he told it tonight. Anyway, he said he'll listen to someone talk about the eternal torment hell view if they'll just put one finger tip on a hot stove as they are talking. lol

We are mortal. No mortal could hold up even with just one fingertip on a hot stove for all eternity. We were born fragile human beings, with every breathe we take dependent on God. Immortality is a gift of God, only for believers. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on that.

But take your time. lol

And ponder this scripture:

13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 WHO ALONE HAS IMMORTALITY, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

1 Cor. 15:20 (Obviously just talking to believers here. There is no message like this to the unbelievers):

50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's pretty simple. Because we put on immortality, death is swallowed up in victory. Without immortality, there is only death, eternal death.

Also notice, in the above passage, that perishable is the opposite of immortal. What happens to the wicked? They perish! So how could they perish and then be immortal at the same time when to be perishable and immortal are contradictory conditions?

Another great point from the person that came in recently who agreed with my hell view:

If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, then all the unbelievers in hell being tormented forever are not God's enemies anymore?

1 Cor. 15
24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

There's also this:

If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, not death, then who has paid that penalty? Who has suffered unending, everlasting torture or torment for our sins? The Word of God says, "Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6), "Christ died for us" (Romans 6:8), "Christ died for our sins" (1 Corinthians 15:3), and, "that he by the grace of God should taste death [not eternal torment] for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).
---Sidney Hatch

And one last point. Sorry, just got going here. lol

Revelation 14:
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Ok, maybe a few points more :))

First of all that passage says anyone that worships the beast will receive God's full strength wrath. So much for the different degrees of suffering since everyone that isn't written in the lamb's book of life will worship the beast according to Rev. 13:8. You can't get fuller than full, can you?

Also, all this torment is said to be done in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. So this is what Christ and the Holy Angels will be doing for all eternity, watching the wicked suffer? I thought he was going to be with us. I guess he'll be multi-tasking.

Also notice it says the "smoke" will go up forever and ever, not that they are tormented forever and ever, but the "smoke" of their torment goes up forever and ever. And remember we are back in Revelation again with all it's symbolic imagery. Smoke rising forever and ever is used elsewhere in scripture also:

"There is a connection between the ever-rising smoke of Revelation 14:11 and the Old Testament imagery upon which it draws. Prophesying the long-past destruction of the city of Edom, Isaiah says that its fire “will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever.”7 And yet the fires which destroyed Edom are not still burning, smoke is not still rising from its remains. The imagery communicates the city’s permanent and irreversible destruction, not its perpetual or everlasting burning. We have no reason, then, for thinking the same imagery in Revelation communicates the perpetual, everlasting torment of human beings."
---Chris Date

And then it says, "they have no rest day and night". Contrast that with how the scriptures say believers will enter his rest:

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

And here's what the Rethinking Hell website has to say about Revelation 14:9-11 (smoke of torment goes up forever and ever):
“. . . and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night . . ."

If it were not for this passage and one other in Revelation, what is now the traditional view of hell may never have developed. The angel promises that beast-worshippers will be tormented with fire and the smoke thereof goes up forever, which seems to suggest that their torment goes on forever. He also says they will have no rest day or night, suggesting that their restlessness will never come to an end. The challenge to conditionalism seems obvious.

But equally obvious should be the fact that the vision given to John consists of highly symbolic and apocalyptic imagery, so it must be interpreted carefully. The imagery of restlessness and smoke rising perpetually from torment may not actually communicate eternal torment, any more than a seven-headed, ten-horned beast (Rev 13:1) ridden by a prostitute with the name of a city on her head (Rev 17:3-6) communicates a future reality like something pictured in a horror movie.

So then what does the imagery in this portion of John’s vision communicate? The harlot Mystery Babylon is seen tormented as well (Rev 18:7,10,15) and smoke from her torment also rises forever (Rev 19:3). But with respect to the city the harlot represents the interpreting angel says, “Babylon the great city [will] be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more” (Rev 18:21), borrowing language from Ezekiel 26:20-21, a prophecy concerning the destruction of the city of Tyre fulfilled long ago: “you will not be inhabited . . . you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again.”

So this imagery of smoke rising forever from torment, when interpreted in the light of the Old Testament source it is quoting from, communicates permanent destruction that leaves lifeless remains. This should serve as no surprise to students of the Old Testament; the imagery comes straight from Isaiah 34:8-10 which describes the fires which long ago destroyed the city of Edom and have since dissipated: “Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever.” Edom is not literally burning to this day, smoke is not still rising from its remains.

The imagery of smoke rising forever communicates the permanency of Edom’s destruction and that of Mystery Babylon. Therefore, the smoke rising from the torment of the beast-worshippers amounts to imagery communicating their permanent destruction as well."


Ok, I'm done. :)

Tweet