Re: Loquat...

Loquat you said, "Both your grandma and your dad understand that when we are talking about hell, we are dealing with the non-physical, the immaterial, the incorporeal.......in other words, the spirit realm and spiritual realities, albeit evil in nature. Yet both insist on using very literal imagery to prove a point about CI. Now who's employing double-standards in their hermeneutics?"

My grandmother believed as I do that there will be a literal fire that will completely consume the wicked, hence God is a consuming fire. So she told her pastor that she did certainly believe in hell and so much so that she believed it was hot enough to burn the wicked up. So no double standard there.

I believe this passage is literal, and my grandmother and dad would agree:

2 Peter 3:
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Notice that last part (verse 7). This day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men is compared to the days of Noah. The flood was literal, was it not? And so will the fire that destroys all the ungodly be a literal fire. Why would there be a comparison there to the literal flood if the fire is just symbolism?

2 Peter 3:
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

My dad believes, just as I do, that there is no immortality for the unbelievers. So he believes all they will ever be is mortal. So when people talk about mortals living forever in torment, he makes jokes about how that will all work out. So with him there is no double standard either, just having a little fun.

You said, "Both your grandma and your dad understand that when we are talking about hell, we are dealing with the non-physical, the immaterial, the incorporeal......"

No they do not understand hell that way. They understand hell to be eternal destruction by fire of mortal physical men who in no way possess immortality and so they perish in the fire, all of them, both body and soul, as Jesus warned about.

Again, where in the bible does it say we were created with an immortal soul? You have yet to show me a verse for that. I think you are adding that in.

Immortality is only possessed by God and believers will put on immortality at the resurrection. This is God's promise to believers only.

Get rid of the immortal soul (for unbelievers) idea that's not in the scriptures at all, and all this might start to become clear.

You said, "Your grandma is quite mistaken, therefore, if she seriously believes (it's quite hard to tell sometimes, bearing in mind your comments above) that any hell 'fire' can destroy a human soul. "

Why is she so mistaken when Jesus himself said the exact thing you are saying can't be done, can certainly be done! I don't think it can get any plainer. He said the soul can be destroyed in hell, which is called the Lake of Fire, and the Second Death. (Rev. 20:14)

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You said, "No evangelical believer I have ever met who holds to 'ECT' (as you call it) believes these poor souls are writhing in agony for want of an effective ac unit. Their pain is on a spiritual plain that matches their spiritual existence, and emanates from their awareness of being eternally separated from the love of God and His glory (Lk 16:19-31 and 2 Thess. 1:9). You have all fallen into the trap of taking it quite literally, despite your protestations to the contrary."

Well that's surprising actually, because here in America people take the ECT view quite literally. Not everyone, but a great many.

But let's just look at a quote from one of your own, Charles Spurgeon, whom I love and admire, but surely don't agree with him on his view of hell. But obviously he took the ECT view quite literally:

"Now, do not begin telling me that this is metaphorical fire: who cares for that? If a man were to threaten to give me a metaphorical blow on the head, I should care very little about it; he would be welcome to give me as many as he pleased. And what say the wicked? ‘We do not care about metaphorical fires.’ But they are real, sir—yes, as real as yourself. There is a real fire in hell, as truly as you have now a real body—a fire exactly like that which we have on earth in everything except this—that it will not consume, though it will torture you. You have seen the asbestos lying in the fire red hot, but when you take it out it is unconsumed. So your body will be prepared by God in such a way that it will burn for ever without being consumed; it will lie, not as you consider, in a metaphorical fire, but in actual flame."
---Spurgeon

Mr. Spurgeon, I say, God is a consuming fire! The fire will certainly consume!


Hebrews 12:
25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE!

2 Peter 3:

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
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