Re: Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?

187: I have only skimmed the posts, but this is what I see. You are being accused of diverting from the issue and attacking Vektek's other beliefs. I for one do not see you doing this.

MST: 187, thank you for your contribution. I believe the problem here is that as you said you have only skimmed through the posts. I believe that even Refreshed would have to acknowledge that she did indeed attempt to tie Vek's annihilation belief to her calvinistic beliefs, she did indeed accuse Vek of needing to produce a lie to comfort her in her guilt over those who would suffer this eternal torment and she did indeed attribute vek's annihilation beliefs to her belief in predetermination. As well she did indeed make it clear that "vek's old cult" espouses this "false" belief implying that vek was still influenced by the cult folks. Perhaps in the parts you did skim, you missed all of this, but i wouldn't be too terribly opposed to copying and pasting it all for you if that would help you to embrace a more clear and truthful picture of the actual events. I think it's wonderful that you would want to offer a Word of Encouragement, and in this i am deeply sincere, but as far as i understand, real Words of Encouragement from God would be based in truth as one very important attribute, while unfortunately this attempt was built around lies.

If perhaps you did "skim" enough to have seen refreshed indeed state all of these things that Vek and i have pointed out (we did not both imagine them out of thin air afterall), it would lead me to believe perhaps that you are so emotionally wrapped up in your own beliefs on this issue, holding with great ferver to the eternal suffering position that you are not able to view even the facts of what Refreshed has clearly done accurately. This is the very kind of thing that happens when emotional ferver for an issue gets in the way and clouds the facts.

187:: I think many other readers are not seeing it either so be of good cheer.

mst: what might you be basing this opinion upon?

187:: They are just using these arguments to put you down.

mst: refreshed has been very blatantly diverting from the issue of annihilation vs. eternal torment and both vek and i have challenged her with this simple and basic truth. I have no desire to "put refreshed down". When she says something that makes sense, amidst the many things within this thread that simply haven't, i will happily agree with her.

187:: They cannot address what you said so they accuse you of diverting and attacking other beliefs instead.

mst: to me this is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. Since refreshed has avoided actually challenging vektek in the issue at hand, yes i'll say it again, the issue of "annihilation vs. eternal torment", she has simply been attacking wildly around it, vek's other beliefs, vek's past history with "the cult", vek's emotional need to believe a lie to appease her guilt, etc, i feel that both Vek and myself have simply been encouraging Refreshed to at least stay focused on the issue, something she seems to have been having a very difficult time with.

187: When you said, "How can a person then be responsible for their own action of not putting their faith in Jesus, if they believe the way you do? [refering to Vek's belief in predetermination...] A person is not sentenced to death for something someone else did. (Only Jesus did that on the cross) Jesus, the Royal Judge would be the guilty party if He created you to fail.

mst: you do realize i hope that this is refreshed diverting the issue of "annihilation vs. eternal torment" into "predetermination" as if they are somehow inseparable, something you were just defending refreshed as not having done. This whole point is a diversion from the issue at hand. Are you really not able to see that this does not address the issue of "annihilation vs. eternal torment"? Vektek does not deny that there will be a judgement and a severe penalty. She just believes based upon her interpretation of scripture that the severe penalty will consist of permanant and eternal annihilation rather than eternal torment. Are you able to be calm and rational enough to at least recognize what Vektek is actually saying she believes rather than recklessly misrepresenting it? If you are emotionally and fervently tied to the mainstream position of eternal torment in Hell to such extraordinary depths and with such a self assured feeling of certainty, then perhaps not.

187: Although most people would rather believe the way these two do, I know many of us just want the truth. It's never good to believe a lie.

mst: It seems to me that most within the mainstream church system believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering as you do, so what you are saying here does not make sense. I believe that many people want the truth, but most very willingly settle instead for being indoctrinated by whatever the mainstream system of church tells them to believe. They fully place their trust in whatever church building they decided to become a member of and whatever pastor they decided to "submit under and tithe to" and believe that whatever it tells them to believe is just as if it were strait from the mouth of God. In my travels which includes having visited well over 100 church buildings for whatever purposes the Lord had for me, i have seen quite a bit of this.

You're right about one thing. It's never good to believe a lie... and the genuine truth seeker will pray with a soft and open heart that if any lie has found its way into their heart, that the Lord will reveal it and crucify it out. This of course requires enough humility to believe that a lie might possibly have found its way in. As a genuine truth seeker myself, this is a prayer i have lifted up to the Lord many times.

By contrast, most people who are a part of the mainstream church system, from what i have experienced, are guilty in many ways of the sin of doctrinal certainty, being "know it alls" about things they really can't possibly know which hardens their heart against being able to hear the Lord correcting something false that they have allowed in. Much of this has its origins in orthodoxy and tradition.

187: Don't let these false accusations discourage you.

mst: if you are willing to actually read the posts to get an accurate and complete picture of what they say, please feel free to list a single false accusation. Until you are genuinely familiar with the content however, you remain unqualified in this role. My hope is that people can calm down over this emotionally charged issue, take some deep breaths and then be able to accurately see, express and respond to what each individual has actually stated.

187: If anyone responds to this post I don't plan to continue in the discussion. I doubt I will reply. This is all I wanted to say.

mst: To me you have kicked up a lot of dust including having made various unsubstantiated accusations and other false claims to only then walk away from it and i am not sure i understand the mentality of someone who would choose to go about things this way, especially one who claims to be a follower of Lord Jesus. I'm not sure if it's cowardice or something else, but it would seem to include an aversion to engaging in open and honest dialogue with a willingness to follow through in the hopes of finding resolution.

Nevertheless, as much as i would enjoy your continued participation and the opportunity to come to know you better and to hopefully sort out any misunderstandings, whatever reasons you might have for choosing to exit the dialogue, the choice is yours to make :). Tweet