Re: Best Scam ever...

First let me say that I don't believe all people trying to speak in tongues, or heal people, etc. are purposely trying to be fakes like Marjoe. I believe there are many who are sincerely trying to do these things because they believe they are suppose to be doing these things. So many, because they are sincere, would not be doing these things for money.

That said, there is a simple reason as to why I reject all the supposed sign gifts being done today. I believe that in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, "but when the perfect comes" means when the full knowledge comes, or the full revelation of the Gospel of Christ comes, that would provide everything we needed to be trained in righteousness, complete, and equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:17)

Here's the whole passage:
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


It's just one passage, but it answers the question of when these things would cease or pass away, for me. It's like the issue of the Sabbath. Those that believe we must keep the Sabbath, with tons of scripture to support their view (because they don't rightly divide the word, yep there that is again Rainy :)) can be refuted with two simple verses. I don't need a whole slew of passages to refute this. I think this is enough:

Colossians 2:16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

That settles the issue for me. I need not go any further with it. But those that disagree think I need a whole lot more than that to be able to refute the huge deal of the Sabbath. And the Sabbath no doubt was huge in the Old Covenant. It had a huge purpose! But that purpose was fulfilled in Christ. He became our eternal Sabbath rest. The Sabbath, Holy days, etc. were just shadows, pointing to the much better things to come. But all day long on my facebook page, warnings of my rebellion against the Sabbath will scroll across my screen, and these two simple verses will not satisfy those that believe I am in rebellion against God on this issue with my stubborn, closed heart! If you've heard of the Hebrew Roots movement, and there are other names for it too, this is another movement to be on guard about and it's growing by leaps and bounds too. I have friends that are hardcore into it.


But going back to 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, what is Paul saying in that passage? Now I know everyone has their interpretation of that passage, but here is what I believe he's saying: We've had partial knowledge but soon we will have full knowledge, or full revelation, and that is when these gifts will cease or pass away because they will no longer be needed. Those gifts have been paving the way for the much more sufficient way of confirming the word, the written word being completed. It's like how we could hear someone give a verbal sermon, but we would soon forget the details of the sermon, and over time, would probably forget the sermon altogether. But if we had a written transcript of the sermon to keep for ourselves, we could refer back to it over and over as we needed to remember all that was said. Of course we aren't just talking about any sermon from man, we are talking about the very words of God being written down for us, and in the scriptures is the full revelation of what God wanted us to know to be complete in Christ. It's not just partial knowledge anymore, which is all the Corinthians had at the time Paul was talking to them about just knowing in part. Tongues, prophecies, etc. were miraculous ways of spreading the gospel in the days of partial knowledge but it was still just verbal speech that they couldn't concretely hold onto like the written word that they could go back to over and over. Think about the thousands and thousands of prophecies that have been told amongst those that still believe in the gift of prophecy. And who even really remembers them over time? I'm not even talking about how many never even came true (according to Mike Bickle, over 80% never come true but I would venture to say none of them really do, unless they are so vague you can't even tell, because I don't believe they are from God in the first place). But forget that part, and just imagine how long all these prophecies actually stay in the minds of the people that hear them, and for how long? Could they remember fine details about them many years later? But the written word is always there with all it's fine details. And so that is why it was superior to the gift of prophecy and tongues because it's written, so if forgotten, we could go back and read it again. And it contains all we need. No new revelations or prophecies needed! For those that didn't or still don't have a bible in their language, someone could read the bible to them with a translator. The written word was a much more concrete way of spreading the gospel, than with prophecies and tongues.

It also makes no sense whatsoever for Paul to tell the Corinthians the gifts would cease or pass away if it wasn't going to happen until the Second coming of Christ. What he said wouldn't have had any meaning for them or any of us if it was something that wouldn't happen until Christ returned.


In Corinthians 13, Paul gives two illustrations referring to knowing in part vs. knowing the full revelation. One is about being a child vs. being a man. I just think about my own child with that illustration. My child is smart, but so often I have this thought, "She's still a child and there is so much that she doesn't yet know or understand, but one day when she's grown, she will understand these things". It doesn't make sense that Paul would be talking about when Christ comes back that they will have the full revelation, instead of just knowing in part like a child. He's talking about how they will soon have the full revelation and then they will be mature in their knowledge and understanding like growing into adulthood brings knowledge and understanding. Then he gives the illustration of seeing in a mirror dimly and he used that illustration I believe because the mirrors of that time were not like ours today. They were not clear. So he's comparing the partial knowledge they had to seeing in a dim mirror, not being able to know all the details because it's not all clear yet. But soon with the full revelation coming, they would be able to see clearly like they could face to face. Paul talked about the prophets of old and how they had so longed to know the full mystery that was going to be revealed but of course they had died long before it came.

Ephesians 3:5

5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

Colossians 1:25

I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

2 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

Notice in that Colossians passage specifically 1:28, Paul is talking about being mature in Christ, no longer like children, because they have been given the mystery, all wisdom, no longer limited to partial knowledge. This mystery had been 26 hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints!
And then in 2:2 Paul says,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ.

This is what he was talking about in 1 Corinthians 13. Soon was coming, the full revelation, the mystery that those before them had longed to know, so that they no longer were limited to partial knowledge. This mystery becoming known, and written in the scriptures, was far better than the gifts of tongues and prophecy and knowledge which only brought partial knowledge, but left everyone still like children in their understanding and not to maturity in Christ.


Now take the first thing Paul said in this passage and the last part:

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Love never ends, it will go on for eternity. But does faith and hope go on for eternity? No! Faith and hope will end when Christ returns and we are glorified because we will no longer be living by faith and hope but we will then be living by sight.

Hebrews 11:
4Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Romans 8:
24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

So Paul says these three things, faith, hope, and love will abide. And he is contrasting these three things that will be ongoing in the life of the church until the return of Christ (with love never ending) but in contrast, he says the gifts of tongues, knowledge, and prophecy will pass away or cease. It would make no sense for Paul to contrast the sign gifts with hope and faith if all them were going to cease at the same time.

And obviously it's true in this passage, that Paul is talking specifically about the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. But show me someone or group that has ever separated those gifts with the gift of healing. They went together in the Apostolic times, and no one that I know of separates them now. Churches that claim to operate in the gift of healing also claim to operate in the gift of tongues, etc.

But Paul is not talking here about other gifts in the body of Christ, like the gift of teaching, preaching, wisdom, mercy, serving, giving, encouragement, etc. He's talking about the sign gifts, those that were given to build up the body of Christ while they just had partial knowledge and needed these gifts to confirm the message until the full revelation was given and confirmed in writing.


Now, I have no fantasy that you are going to agree with everything I just said whatsoever, unless God changed your mind. :) I fully know you have a different interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13. But you keep asking me why I reject that people are walking in these gifts today and it's because I think it flat out says they would cease! Just like I think it flat out says Christ was the fulfillment of the Sabbath day. It doesn't matter to me how much people try to persuade me that I'm rebellious for not keeping the Sabbath, or how closed minded I am about the gifts being for today, when what the scriptures say trump all the other voices for me! If I am wrong, may God correct me, and I have prayed that many times. But so far, he has not! It's what I see it saying. And it all makes perfect sense to me.

So the core of why I believe the way I do is what I believe the scriptures to be saying. The Sabbath was very important and had a important purpose. And those that were told to keep the Sabbath were not to stop until the New Covenant was in place. The gifts of tongues, prophecies, knowledge, etc. were very important, and those that were told to walk in those gifts were not to stop until they were no longer needed. So the commands to keep the Sabbath, and the commands to walk in the sign gifts were there for important reasons, but were those commands meant for everyone? I say no, according to what I read in the scriptures. Their purposes were completed.

But aside from my core position on the subject, all the other things I see out there confirm what I believe the bible to be saying. I've never seen tongues operated according to what the bible teaches about them with all the rules that are supposed to be followed with their use (interpreters being present, only one speaking at a time, etc). Biblical tongues were about real languages, and it's been proven over and over that people claiming to speak in tongues are not speaking real languages. Tongues for a prayer language is not what Paul was talking about at all to the Corinthians. It makes no sense to pray in another language than our own language to God. He doesn't need us speaking a foreign language to him. And don't we want to know what we prayed anyway? :) If the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words (Romans 8:26) which I've seen used to explain the prayer language of tongues, then it isn't us praying, it's the Holy Spirit praying, and there is no language at all in those times because it says the groanings of the Holy Spirit cannot be expressed in words.

And then all the failed prophecies we see continually. And Mike Bickle, a so called Prophet himself, claiming 80% fail even, which is very generous I believe. And what even passes off as prophecies is purely insane so much of the time.

And then the healings. I know we've had many conversations about that, and you say I'm not fair with my assessment of what I see on that, but I just see a much different contrast of the biblical healing miracles than what is portrayed as the gift of healing today. But regardless, I think the gift of healing and all the other sign gifts went together, and I am fully convinced of the gift of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge being ceased according to 1 Corinthians 13, and so I believe the gift of healing has ceased for all the same reasons. But of course, as I have said countless times, that doesn't mean God is not the sovereign healer, that he cannot heal whenever he desires to, or that we should not continually pray for healing for others or ourselves.

I could go on and on of what I see out there to confirm my position, you know that, but I want you to not get sidetracked with more of all that and forget the real reason why I believe the way I do and that's once again, that I believe that is what the bible says, that the sign gifts have ceased. And I just gave you one main passage for this, with a couple of supporting passages. That's not by any means all the biblical support I have for my position, but just like with the Sabbath issue once again, I believe that one passage in 1 Cor. 13 is sufficient to confirm my position on the sign gifts just as those two verses about the Sabbath are sufficient to confirm my position that Christ has fulfilled the Sabbath day. And you are totally free to give me your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, but like I said, I have prayed many many times over it, studied it over and over, read and re-read it, tried to see how the other interpretations could fit, and I still came out with the same interpretation.

And I also can't let go of this point I've made many times. All the false religions, and New Agers, etc. are doing their own signs and wonders, speaking in tongues, doing healings, and on and on and unlike you, I cannot in anyway contribute that to God doing those things when they are not preaching the true gospel, which is what the sign gifts were given for in the first place, to confirm the message of the gospel. All the signs and wonders out there do nothing to confirm that the message being spoken is true now, because everyone one is doing them! And everyone in all the false religions say just as you say, "How can you deny all the evidence? We've seen these things with our own eyes! People walk away healed, etc!" But I say, the gifts were given for a specific purpose, to confirm the true message of the gospel, and those gifts ceased, and so I don't know what all people are seeing now, but it's not the true gifts that were sent to confirm the gospel message, because that is not what the purpose is being used for among all these false religions.


Mark 16:20

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

So take that scripture and then think about it along with what's happening today:

And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs,

[WHILE THE WHOLE WORLD OF FALSE TEACHERS DOES SIGNS AND WONDERS TOO, SO THAT NO ONE CAN KNOW ANYMORE THAT A MESSAGE IS TRUE BY JUST SEEING SIGNS AND WONDERS SINCE DECEIVERS ALL OVER THE WORLD DO THEM ALSO.]

Without being able to be used to confirm the true gospel message, the sign gifts would have no use. Healing can still be attained by praying to God for it, if that is his will. The gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, have no use if they don't confirm that the messengers that have those gifts are true messengers from God.

And one last thing, in Paul's letters that he wrote after he wrote to the Corinthians and told them the gifts would cease or pass away, the word he used for knowledge changed from gnosis to epignosis, full knowledge. The mystery being fully revealed through scripture was to be held to greater esteem than the temporary sign gifts. But what are all the signs and wonders doing today? Just causing mass confusion and leading people away from the eternal blessing of knowing the full gospel of Jesus Christ, the sufficiency we have in Scripture being replaced by silly man-made prophecies that don't come true, and people worshipping healing shows, etc. that even if they worked, would only provide temporary comfort in this life, while the power of the gospel is eternal!

So just keep praying for me if you think I'm dead wrong, but you must understand I can't go against what I believe the scriptures say no matter how much supposed experiential evidence there is out there to prove it wrong. I'm sorry this was so long, but I wanted to be more thorough than ever with my point on this, and I feel like there is still so much I could say, and scriptures to bring out, but hopefully this is enough to settle that I have a very good reason, in my mind at least, to deny the sign gifts being for today.

Tweet