Re: Best Scam ever...

Ed: Vek, one thing i really respect about you is that you don't automatically agree with everything someone like John MacArthur says as well as not automatically agreeing with a doctrine so wildly popular throughout mainstream Christianity as the doctrine of eternal torment in hell for the unbeliever.

Vek: Thanks again on this, but as I know you know, it's not easy to go against the mainstream on anything, much less such a serious issue as the doctrine of Hell. But I am seeing progress made with the hell doctrine and we will see what happens in the upcoming future with it all. I would love to see John MacArthur come to see the conditional immortality view of hell and many others! :)

Ed: To me all of this points to a lot of open mindedness and willingness to think and seek truth for yourself at least in various areas. This is true whether or not you always emerge with the right answers, some of which none of us will know for sure until we pass on and meet the Lord :).

Of course for many reasons i deeply disagree with you (and agree with Rainy) in the area of miracle gifts, but nevertheless - for whatever little this may be worth to you - i do very much appreciate your open mindedness in seeking for truth at least in certain ways :).

Vek: Thanks, but you deeply disagree with me in some areas? I wouldn't have known it. lol

Ed: I am also intrigued that you said John MacArthur would say you are not saved... are you able to speculate as to what specific reason or reasons you believe he would provide? :) Might it have anything to do with Lordship salvation?

Vek: To be honest, I'm still trying to slowly wade through my understanding of the Lordship Salvation teachings. I think I know where I stand on it all, at least to some degree, although I will be honest and say I don't follow John MacArthur or others much that are big on the Lordship Salvation teachings, so I don't know everything they teach about it.

I do know the Lordship Salvation teachers are trying to warn against "Easy Believism" where people say they believe in Jesus but could care less about following him or being obedient to Him and I get that.

I believe those in Christ will follow him and obey him. I believe they will do that by His grace working in them, but that they will not follow him and obey him perfectly by any means. Of course, I imagine that is what the Lordship Salvation teachers teach too.

Phil. 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

I believe focusing on our own performance as christians will backfire though and lead away from true fruits, and will instead lead to pride or despair.
I believe it's focusing away from ourselves and trusting God to work in us, that brings peace and true fruit in our lives. I believe we will always find faults in our walk with Christ on any given day, but yet God requires perfection for our salvation (which is why we had to have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to us). So it's keeping our focus on Him and what he has done for our salvation that leads to assurance of salvation and desiring to obey Him out of sheer love and thankfulness instead of fearing for our salvation. And I'm just not sure the Lordship Salvation teachers are getting that across to people but instead I am concerned they might be producing fear and condemnation in true believers, causing them to have obsessive thoughts about their performance as christians, etc. which I don't think has good results. I hope I'm wrong about that, but the little bit I know has me concerned that might be happening. I've heard others say that's what happened to them sitting under this teaching at least.

I did listen to one Lordship Salvation sermon by John MacArthur and that was the one I was telling Rainy about that left me thinking he would probably say I wasn't saved either. It was over a year ago and I don't remember all the details of it at all so I can't remember exactly why I thought that. I'd have to listen to it again but I don't think I want to do that since I couldn't wait for it to end the first time. :) Tweet