Re: Fermentation, pesticides & other 'cides' +edit...Re: They told you they are raw? hmmm Re: it IS raw... but is Bragg's raw? Is it really?

The reason I'm replying is simply 'for the thread information', not because I'm trying to convince you/Tizona of anything.  I don't want anyone to think because I didn't respond, that I'm in agreement with your reply to me.

To recap, you said it was a fact, not an opinion, that fermentation breaks down pesticides (I assume you meant the fermentation & pesticides in vinegar, since that was the topic).  Since you said it was a fact (and since I'm always wanting to learn), I asked you to share the data that proved that fermentation breaks down pesticides (after showing several abstracts that prove that many times this is not the case, in at least one case they were actually more concentrated, and in quite a few cases the pesticides were simply moved to the sediment).  You provided no factual evidence that the process of fermentation (particularly vinegars or foods) breaks down agri-chemicals (particularly not the vast array of them utilized).

the reason that I said that pesticides are broken down by the fermentation process, is that a good portion of the bioremediation industry is based on that concept. these companies are called in when Oil, pesticides, etc. contaminate an area. They introduce bacteria and/or fungus and/or some other type of living organism and allow the fermentation process to break down the pesticides into naturally inert compounds.  This, of course, would not be even closely similar to home or commercial fermentation of vinegar (or any other food) - so certainly it doesn't come close to proving factually that "fermentation breaks down pesticides" as far as vinegar (or other fermented foods) are concerned.  There are certain microorganisms that break down certain substances, but dousing an area in the open with specific microorganisms to break down a specific chemical is disimilarl to fermenting vinegars in many different ways.  Obviosly, this doesn't address the possible toxicity of the by-product/s.

the information you have there clearly shows that the fermentation process of wine does in fact degraded pesticides. The information I offered showed that in a few cases, the pesticides were broken down and seemingly eliminated (but the data says nothing about the by-products and how toxic/harmful they might be); it showed that many times the poison is simply moved in the lees/sediment rather than the wine (which would do no good for those that shake their vinegar before using...or ingest the whole jar of whatever they ferment). And in three the chemical-poisons were even more concentrated! Now imagine that instead of a year or two of fermentation, there is 10 years of fermentation as we have with these types of vinegar's.  That would/could mean that the 3 poisons that were more concentrated would be even MORE concentrated...and we don't know what would happen to all those that were simply moved to the sediment.  They might lessen, they might break down into other toxins, they might somehow increase...we simply don't have enough data to determine anything conclusive. It's just not something I'm worried about  'Tis certainly your choice to ingest whatever you want to ingest.  With grapes being one of the most toxic fruits (due to using a fluoride-based pesticide) I certainly wouldn't advise or ingest vinegars (or any substance) made from non-organic grapes.

http://www.ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/30/3/202

Levels of Cryolite on Thompson Seedless Grapes and Raisins

T. E. Archer ¹ and W. O. Gauer ¹

¹ Department of Environmental Toxicology, University of California, Davis, California 95616.

Cryolite (sodium aluminofluoride, Na₃AlF₆) was applied to Thompson Seedless grapes at various rates and in various formulations for control of the omnivorous leaf roller. Grapes given a single application of cryolite had acceptable residue levels 30 days after application (4.9 and 5.1 ppm). When the same formulation was applied on two separate dates, June 3 and July 21, initial residues on the grapes were much greater but residues 30 days later were about the same (5.9 ppm). Late applications, however, especially two applications, resulted in unacceptably high residues on washed, dried, and sorted raisins produced from the grapes (> 7.0 ppm).

There is NOTHING "acceptable" about a fluoride level of 5ppm and greater than 7ppm is even more insidious.  When we factor in that grape plants/vines uptake large amounts of fluoride (as do tea plants) and that grape vines in a typical vineyard are sprayed and harvested  for MANY years - we may be looking at fluoride concentrations well in excess of >7ppm in grape vinegars in older vines.  And ALL balsamic vinegars are required to have a grape wine 'base' or they're not supposed to be labeled 'balsamic'...and that wine base in balsamic vinegar is "concentrated must" ("must" = sediment).  So if the fermentation processes INCREASED the concentration of poison and then it was concentrated further?  That could result in a highly toxic concentration of fluoride.

And as I keep saying, the beneficial aspects of this vinegar are about 50 times any other kind of vinegar I've ever had. I'm sure that trumps whatever teeny tiny little trace of pesticides might have survived the fermentation process. And like I keep saying, I'm glad your experience/s with this balsamic vinegar have been positive.  If you feel it "trumps" the possibility of 7+ppm fluoride, that's certainly not any of my concern.

and of course we go back to Bragg's. They claim to be organic. Are they? This is a family that's willing to lie about virtually anything and everything. Who they are where they came from how old they are, their relationships to each other etc. etc. their entire lives are nothing but lies  As I mentioned previously, I don't care to 'debate' Braggs (I use another brand) - but I do think it's odd you seem so concerned about them lying after it was pointed out to you the company that sells the balsamic vinegar you're recommending told you it is "raw', when their site states it's processed at 170F.  

And they also lie about having the mother in their vinegar. It's right there on the label and it's a big bold face lie. So maybe they are lying about being organic too? God only knows. it is a company you cannot trust.  It's already been shown the sellers of the vinegar you purchased lied to you, so 'God only knows' "what" about the vinegar you're recommending?

And about 'vinegar mothers' - I've read many different articles about vinegar making (because I hope to be making my own in the next year or two) - some same the cellulose mother floats atop the vinegar, others say it's sediment, some say it can be either/both.  Braggs vinegar has a thick sediment, so unless you've tested it for 'life' and cellulose content, there's no way you can say their claim is 'big bold face lie'.  Here's a google search on "vinegar, mother, sediment" for those that care to research further: http://tinyurl.com/3xug9fg 

"Real" vinegar is ANY type of vinegar that meets the criteria of vinegar.  The balsamic vinegar of which you speak is no more or less "real" than any other type of vinegar.

Unyquity