Fermentation, pesticides & other 'cides'...Re: They told you they are raw? hmmm Re: it IS raw... but is Bragg's raw? Is it really?

from your post above >>> the fact that fermentation process breaks down pesticides is well... a fact. That's not a matter of opinion <<<

This issue affects us all greatly - and since you're claiming this is a fact and not an opinion, I'm assuming you have evidence (and that is evidence that I/we all should definitely see and know).  I'm ALWAYS willing to learn valid information that can replace something I believe that isn't actually correct at all...so I'm actually excited to see & learn something that would correct misinformation!  I sure hope you're willing to share how you concluded that 'fermentation breaks down pesticides' (I assume you mean all pesticides -?- but I don't know what type of fermentation you're referring to).

I've reviewed quite a few abstracts & studies on various pesticides, insecticides, fungicides, and other "cides" ...and how they degrade or are adsorbed (or not) during various lab fermentation processes (using very specific yeasts or other microorganisms in contolled solutions & conditions).  I've never found anything that concludes "general fermentation morphs all agri-poisons into non-toxic substances and leaves only harmless by products".  Rather, what I typically find are conclusions similar to these:

The yeasts [ in this case: two strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae ] adsorbed and degraded the studied insecticides to various extents, but their fermentative activity was not affected. A moderate adsorbtion (approximately 10% of the residue) was observed for chlorpyrifos-methyl, fenitrothion, parathion, and quinalphos. When absorbed, the insecticides were also degraded by about 50%. SpringerLink - Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, Volume 43, Number 2

Farmers fight grape diseases and insects applying pesticides that can be found at harvest time on grapes. The persistence of pesticides depends on the chemical characteristic of the active ingredients as well as on photodegradation, thermodegradation, codistillation, and enzymatic degradation. The pesticide residues on grapes can be transferred to the must and this can influence the selection and development of yeast strains. Moreover, yeasts can also influence the levels of the pesticides in the wine by reducing or adsorbing them on lees. During the fermentative process, yeasts can cause the disappearance of pesticide residues by degradation or absorption at the end of the fermentation when yeasts are deposited as lees. ScienceDirect - Advances in Food and Nutrition Research : Pesticides' Influence on Wine Fermentation

In some cases the presence of pesticides has also stimulated the yeasts, especially Kloeckera apiculata, to produce more alcohol. After fermentation, pesticide residues in wine were always smaller than those on the grapes and in the must, except for those pesticides that did not have a preferential partition between liquid and solid phase (azoxystrobin, dimethoate, and pyrimethanil) and were present in wine at the same concentration as on the grapes. In some cases (mepanipyrim, fluazinam, and chlorpyrifos) no detectable residues were found in the wines at the end of fermentation. Pesticide residues in grapes, wine, and their proc... [J Agric Food Chem. 2000] - PubMed result

The action of a yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) upon the insecticides Carbaryl, Tetrachlorvinphos and Deltamethrin and the fungicides Quinomethionate, Triadimefon and Vinclozolin during aerobic fermentation was investigated. The yeast adsorbed all the pesticides, four of them completely and two (Carbaryl, 50%, and Triadimefon, 90%) partially. In the case of Deltamethrin and Quinomethionate, degradation also occurred. SpringerLink - Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, Volume 29, Numbers 2-3

Five cholinesterase-inhibiting insecticides (demeton, malathion, parathion, Phosdrin, and Sevin) were still present in the finished wine, whereas three cholinesterase-inhibiting insecticides (ethion, Diazinon, and Trithion) and all of the chlorinated insecticides tested (DDT, chlordane, Kelthane, Tedion, and endrin) were not detected in the wines. It was definitely established, however, that all the chlorinated compounds tested were in the sediments or lees removed after fermentation. Three cholinesterase-inhibiting compounds (ethion, parathion, and Trithion) were also more concentrated in the lees than in the original musts. Diazinon was not found in any component after fermentation, probably because it is hydrolyzed in acidic solution. Chlordane, DDT, endrin, Kelthane, Tedion, ethion, malathion, parathion, and Trithion were detected in the distillates from the lees containing these compounds, chlordane being considerably more concentrated than in the original must. Distribution of Pesticides in Fermentation Products Obtained from Artificially Fortified Grape Musts - PAINTER - 2006 - Journal of Food Science - Wiley Online Library

Of course, none of these show anything at all conclusive like "natural fermentation renders all agri-poisons non-toxic to humans", only that a few are affected by certain strains in certain percentages in laboratory controlled experiments.  And for those of us that consume the 'sediment' of most everything we ferment (as well as the vinegars we ingest), the fact many of these studies show the poisons are just as high in the sediment as they were in the original grapes or 'grape must' is concerning.  A quick search also shows that MANY agri-chemicals are created by liquid fermentation.  All of this (and other similar studies I've seen) lead me to believe that 'general fermentation' is FAR from being something that conclusively removes all agri-poisons from foods.  But obviously, I haven't read every study on 'cides' & fermentation and don't have all the data necessary to conclude anything but what I can conclude from what I've seen, which is: "sometimes certain types of fermentation of certain produce reduces or eliminates (or increases) some agri-poisons, in various percentages".

'Long time ago on CZ there were several "eagle researchers & scientists" (most are gone now), but back then when one of them posted something, most of us believed whatever they'd posted.  With a few newer 'science & research' oriented posters on CZ, most of us are learning to NEVER just "believe something someone said on CZ" (or on the internet) without solid proof/evidence...no matter WHO said ir says it  (a good lesson to learn, for sure).  So, since you seem to know it's 'not an opinion', but rather it's a fact that the fermentation process breaks down pesticides, I'm assuming you have solid evidence of that fact you'd be willing to share....and I'm sure there are dozens (if not hundreds) of folks on CZ (including myself) that would LOVE to have that proof.  Sheesh, if we could all ferment toxic-laden produce & foods and not need to spend extra on organic, that'd be a Godsend for sure AND for certain.

So please, when/if you have time of course, post the information/research that led you to conclude this is a solid fact and not just an opinion or belief.   I'm sure I'm not the only one on CZ that would like to replace misinformation with truth :)

'Like they say, "inquiring minds wanna know"!

Uny