Judging with the same standard rather than with 2 separate ones.

Vek: If the apostles themselves in this "apostolic healing movement" can't even be healed themselves, then how in the world can it be made to be the grand importance that they make it?

Ed: I'm not sure about "grand importance", but it's obviously an important part of what Lord Jesus did in His own ministry and what the Lord instructed His followers to do and said that "those who believe" would be doing. I would say that these people are simply taking the Lord's instructions seriously in a way that you are not.

I know you feel that Paul's gifting/authority to heal and that of the other early followers of the Lord was stripped from them mid lifetime, but for me all the evidence proves you to be wrong about this so for me to explain my position yet again would only keep us going around in circles. Would you like to agree to disagree on this?

Vek: Why is that so needed to convince people of the gospel, if they can't even be healed themselves? And what does that show all their followers?

Ed: Same as why it was needed 2000 years ago and with the same imperfect track record.

Vek: How can all their followers have faith that they will be healed, if the apostles and leaders themselves aren't even healed?

Ed: same as with Paul et al :).

Vek: And if healing is in the atonement like they all say and have written books about, how can they not be healed?

Ed: i will leave these theological intricacies to the theologians to debate in perpetuity. In my experience, as in paul's experience and that of the other early and modern followers of the Lord, not everybody gets healed and i don't claim to have all the answers as to why.

Vek: Why would God not heal the very people that are doing the most important work for the kingdom of God...

Ed: You should ask God about this regarding Apostle Paul. In Paul's case, i recall him hearing the words "my grace is sufficient for you".

Vek: rising up generations of apostles and prophets, doing signs and wonders even greater than Jesus, and subduing the whole world so Jesus can return?

Ed: once again, i will leave the theological intricacies to the theologians to debate in perpetuity. I don't feel led to go too deep into this kind of stuff, but i certainly don't believe that "the whole world needs to be subdued so that Jesus can return". regarding "greater works" i am genuinely not certain of what my Lord was referring to there and since i don't understand it, i don't make an issue of repeating it over and over as some do.

I also don't make an issue out of saying "by His stripes we were healed" since i am really not sure if it was actually the whipping He endured that brought this on rather than the Lord's death and resurrection or something else. Keeping in mind that the Lord and His followers were healing the sick and casting out demons (the disciples without 100% effectiveness) before the whipping, the crucifixion and the resurrection ever took place though one possiblity is that what the Lord was going to make a way for through His sacrifice was retroactive.

I also believe that what the Lord did was perfect, but that the way it all plays out in the lives of His followers as they follow His instructions by healing the sick and casting out demons, there are many factors involved to prevent some of the successes. I believe what the Lord did made it possible, but still that there is an ongoing spiritual war and sometimes there are factors whether known or unknown that need to be addressed and resolved for healing and deliverance to manifest.

Vek: I mean Rolland Baker is having to cancel tour dates and stay home from doing the work of God. That's no good, right!

Ed: Again, we have a very different perspective on this. My perspective is that you are unable to see that Paul and the other early disciples faced similar and you apply a separate standard to them. Double standards as the ones you rely upon are not rational and are hypocritical.

Vek: ...I thought they were better than that? Why are they so powerless? They must have a form of godliness, but deny it's power? That's kind of hypocritical in light of all their non-stop teachings on the miraculous healings, right?

Ed: the hypocrisy here is that you can not see that you can just as easily be saying this about paul and the other early disciples, but instead you place these early followers of the Lord with the same failures on a pedestal while instead of honoring modern followers of the Lord in the same way who do the same things, you despise them.

Vek: And before you answer with "Paul wasn't healed, and his friends, etc"

Ed: oops, too late :).

Vek: I'll tell you a huge difference. Paul stopped talking about the signs and wonders after a certain point. At the time he and his friends were not healed, he had ceased to talk about the signs and wonders, another indication they had ceased.

Ed: Even if he really did stop talking about them, a contention which you are welcome to substantiate any time you would like, this does not prove that the Lord's gifting and authority was stripped from paul and the other early followers of the Lord mid lifetime. The idea is completely irrational.

Vek: ...But you'll never see a meeting without talk of all the healings and other signs and wonders with these people. That would be insane.

Ed: Just like the Lord's healings and other signs and wonders are pervasive as testimonies through the gospels and the disciple's miracles signs and wonders are pervasive as testimonies through the book of Acts. Why would you have a double standard which says that sharing these miracle testimonies which bring glory to the Lord was good for the early church, but not good for the church today? It's completely irrational and hypocritical.

Vek: lol But then despite the non-stop talk about it all, they can't even be healed themselves.

Ed: Just like paul :).

Vek: You won't find Paul telling everyone that they must be healed or they are not walking in the will of God and they are denying the power of God, and all the other shaming these people do, then all the while at the same time, he's not healed either. Paul wasn't a gigantic hypocrite like that.

Ed: well to the extent that this is happening among those less enlightened, i am with you in denouncing it. i believe this is particularly a problem for some of the more controlling people (but not all) within the "word of faith" influence. so you and i get a rare chance to agree on something. Your good friends Heidi Baker and Randy Clark certainly DO NOT do this and nor do i or many others i know personally who also walk in this gifting/authority as given by the Lord.

If you want to grow in wisdom, i would highly encourage you to not paint everybody "who believes" with the same brush, those who do what the Lord said "those who believe" would be doing including healing the sick and casting out demons. Some do it much more compassionately than others.

Peace.
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