Re:

i could tell right off the bat you were dealing with a calvinist fundy. the mindf**k done on these people make it impossible for them to find god or his kingdom. you are correct in that they have surrendered. actually, they give up before they ever get started and never work toward what the lies they are told tell them they already have. the rest of their time is spent brainwashing one another that what they believe is true regardless of the facts they may bump into in life. jesus spoke of these when he said they neither go in nor do they allow others to enter into the kingdom.