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amber1921
11 y
11,644
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Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... sk8ter
11 y
10,821
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Maresydotes
11 y
10,949
This is a reply to # 2,051,954Hi Wired,
I sure do agree with you about the scaremongering going on. I really don't think Dr Lam is aware of how many are suffering AF as a direct result of the cold turkeying of either a benzo or antidepressant. I was a patient of Dr Lams for a long while, really wanted to give it a shot. I think it was when I began having those episodes of feeling really good (I forgot what he called them, but then again he could never explain them).. just said it was an as yet unknown complication of AF. Later I found out it was only a "window" as the benzobuddies and Ashton group call a period of calm following a benzo cut. (BDR nows this now as your own personal "lag time")
I couldn't help but notice your saying you just recently CT your own med... just wanted you to be aware that you can still reinstate, if so, using the BDR approach and arrest some of these symptoms from getting any worse. You will be more sympomatic then someone who has not CT'd, I am living proof of this, but in my case I know it was far better then the symptoms I had before.
I'm with you on Lam and NB and supplementation, a benzo sufferer has to be so much more careful with dverything once being CTd.
Mar
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- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,986
This is a reply to # 2,052,305Hey Mar
I wasnt on benzos when starting with Lam,I was originally on nothing (was on Elavil but had been off them CT for three months) and then went on Remeron while on Lams programme because my sleep and Depression became worse. I went on benzos after stopping with Lam...it took me to benzos!
Thanks for the thoughts on the CT, but I am definitely not going to reinstate as I am almost 12 weeks out. My emotional and logically brain is clear and functioning pretty well, almost normal in fact... its just the subconcious and the physical sysmptoms that are still lingering, and although brutal and difficult to get through each day with, I am going to remain strong and keep fighting. Most on benzo buddies think I am doing remarkably well, so should not reinstate. I probably should of in the first month, but I had no idea what was happening to me at the time. I only realised in Febuary..and im so stubborn I just wanted to keep going!
But yes a benzo CT person is now so tender, any form of med effects can be 500% more intense.
Mikey
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- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,986
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,935
MoreThis is a reply to # 2,051,954Seriously guys
You are saying that you were on dr.Lam's program and benzos AT THE SAME TIME?!!!
It doesn't make any sense at all! Even to me and I'm not a doctor....
I'm going to post a separate topic about it...- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Aerose91
11 y
10,889
This is a reply to # 2,052,462Hey guys is anyone still active on this board? Because I am currently 2 years into very severe AF and 10 months into very severe Ativan withdrawal. I was only given the Ativan to counter the insomnia and anxiety from the AF with no knowledge of what was happening. Now, since I CT'd off of 2.5 mg for only 2 weeks use, it's 10 months later and I'm still in benzo hell and it has ruined my AF recovery. My benzo w/d is as bad as anyone I've seen on benzobuddies (I'm Clark on that forum) and it is like a weight holding me down from recovering from AF. I know this pain all too well. And yes, as Mikey says, AF becomes much less severe after experiencing benzo w/d. It's like we've experience the suffering of 10 lifetimes jammed into 1 or 2 years.
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,692
This is a reply to # 2,053,639Hi, Aerose!
I just recently made this connection too.
I've been withdrawing from xanax for a year now and every time I reduce it it would trigger severe crashes.
I believe AF and benzo withdrawal are parts of the same mechanism. They both involve the HPA axis and what happens is that benzo WD acts like stimulant on the adrenal glands causing crashes.
Benzo drugs can very well be the only cause of someone's AF in my opinion. And they will never allow a recovery process to even start because they constantly trigger the fight or flight response. It's a nightmare actually.
I know exactly what you are going through.
I have no idea what to do about it either... I thought I could deal with the AF first and then taper off xanax but it just doesn't work that way...
And I can't get off of xanax cause I'm so weak...
I'm amber19 on BB. Just joined - Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,810
This is a reply to # 2,053,639Hello mate
Ah i think I saw some of your posts, although cant find you under Clark when doing a user name search?
I may be wrong, but were you not doing NB things like coffee enemas an saunas while you were W'Ding? I really think if so, this is why youve not been getting better. The NB protocol is brutal, and especially to an already damaged CNS from the benzos...?
I feel your pain..but you only took them for two weeks? Are you sure its WD? What are your symptoms?- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Aerose91
11 y
10,790
This is a reply to # 2,053,834Hey guys thanks for the line-
Wired- yah it's definitely protracted w/d. I got very very severe AF in March of 2012. It was so bad that my naturopath wouldn't see me because she was certain I had Addison's. once checked to be negative by an endocrinologist I went back to her and she put me on 20 mg hydrocortisone (I hadn't done much of my own research on AF yet- not enough to know all the risks anyway)
After 3 months I was improving but still having anxiety and trouble sleeping so in June my doc put me on Ativan. I think the combo of the Ativan and hydrocortisone was the problem. Within 2 weeks I was having amnesia, scary severe memory loss (I forgot my name) and was doing flaky things (wander across the busy street with no realization of what I was doing) etc.. After doing some research I found that it was the Ativan that was causing this so I asked to stop. My doc said since I was only on for 2 weeks that I could stop c/t. From that point on, now 10 months later, it's been hell. I honestly don't remember all my symptoms because I had over 60 but to list some (most I still have); derealization, halleucinations, intense nerve pain, anxiety, panic attacks, terror, depression, tremors, tinnitus, insomnia (i would sleep 4-5 hours/week), intrusive and obsessive thoughts, inability to feel hot and cold..... and the list goes on.
I know this is benzo related because I never had any of those horrible symptoms with my AF, even though it was severe, before getting off the Ativan.
I then found out that hydrocortisone hits the same GABA receptors as benzos so over the next 3 months I tapered off of my hydrocortisone. So as of September 2012 I've been off all prescriptions and trying to let my body regulate itself.
It's worth mentioning that once benzo w/d started nearly all of my fatigue and symptoms of AF went away. My CNS and HPA axis was so revved up that my adrenals were getting pushed so hard that all symptoms subsided. That, of course, didn't last and I crashed bad again in January.
So here's my plan now: I worked with Dr lam for a few weeks as well as did a hair mineral analysis (I was 4 lows, 11 burnout patterns). Everything shows that I'm (big suprise) sympathetic dominant, which I obviously knew. I also got the book The Schwarzbein Principal for more diet advice and I'm making my own protocol now- no more doctors.
Each day I take:
500-1000 mg vit c
400mg pantethine
5000 iu's vit d
1 pill GB3
1 pill Paramin
500 mg Taurine
500 mg DHA
These I combine with an excellent diet of mostly cooked vegetables, lean proteins and small amounts of complex carbs. I left work over a year ago and stopped working out (I was a personal trainer) and do the rest/meditation thing.
I don't want to follow any 1 protocol by the book because I believe they all have their flaws so they need to be adapted to our individual needs. Also, given the benzo withdrawal we are in a whole other realm as far as symptoms go. It's hard to tell weather it's the AF or the w/d that causes anxiety spikes, panic and Depression most of the time but I'm trying to figure it out.
I really for the past 10 months thought I had to be the only one suffering from both of these problems. As much as I hate the fact that you guys are as well it's nice to have someone else that can understand it. I'm 28 now as will be 29 September 1. My goal is to be able to be on my feet before my 30th birthday. I want to do Parkour and gymnastics again and start to travel the world.
In good health-
Aerose
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,625
This is a reply to # 2,053,959Hey dude
I know your pain so much, I feel for you. I to went on valium because of my zero sleep due to AF, and as it was occasional use at first, I didnt know that the crashes i began getting was tolerance withdrawal at the end of the first month. By Christmas, I was a complete mess, and to barely remember anything of the latter half of last year.
Dont blame yourself or your doc for the CT after two weeks, go d I think anyone would think its ok to ct after such a short time.
You didnt confirm that you were the dude doing coffee enemas on Benzo Buddies? (i still cant find Clark as a username)? If you where, I think this might of been half your problem to why things have gotten so bad. With regards to your supps, I personally would start by removing Taurine straight away, although I know how tempting it can be because its so calming, I really believe messing around with neurotransmitters is not a wise thing, you can easily unbalance the rest by increasing one even more so in benzo withdrawal. Replace it with mag oil for the physical symptoms.
Alot of the people on BB dint have AF/CFS before they started, so they can excercise and still do a lot of things in withdrawal that we cant, we no doubt speeds up there recovery. How I have managed to get my brain back (still horrific physical symptoms but like the depersonalisation, hallucinations have healed and panic attacks reduced) was forcing myself to do breathing techniques up to ten times a day for twenty minutes a piece, light 10-20 yoga (Dr Lams number 1 in his series is great for this) and going for walks. Its traumatic at first, and I could only manage ten minutes of the hell after the first month of being bed bound an it was so scary and frightning, but overtime they can be built up and the fear goes. Im up to 45 minutes now before exhaustion kicks in the adrenals go into overdrive, but its improvements. It also helps the anxiety for a while afterwards. Unfortunately the intrusive thoughts are still here, but they where here before the benzos...sleeping is just like a chaos monologue in my mind, its horrible.
One thing I did notice was using Remeron. I needed some sleep last friday, I took a 7.5mg Remeron, I slept and had no anxiety the next couple of days, then it just returned as normal. I really dont want to take another drug, like you I really want to stay drug free, but I cant afford to stay couped up in my house everyday on my own suffering, its destroying me physically, mentally and financially. Maybe its something to try, at least for six months, then taper of f it very slow...I know some of the guys on BB have had success with it?
I dont know how you have managed to keep going for so long, truly remarkable dude, you have such strength and courage, you can make it, dont forget that. Like you,it must be benzo thing, going travelling and leaving the world behind seems like the only thing you want to do..just get up, leave, escape. I cant wait for that day...and to get back into Karate, PArkour, mountain biking...god AF was so so simple in hindsight.
I know the exhaustion stage will come when the anxiety stops and everything stops being revved up (its hell isnt it?)..Ive had a few days this week where I was so tired, I slept bits during the day and felt calmer, although today is not one of those days. Im looking forward to this, I might just sleep all day for months, it will be amazing!- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,733
This is a reply to # 2,054,109Hi, Mikey!
I have some questions for you before I forgot:)
Why is Taurine so bad you think?(I'm not asking for the sake of the argument I really want to know)
Since you mentioned it's calming I was about to google where I can get it...
I used to take GABA by handfuls until I realized it was not working at all.
Is N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine bad for you as well?
I need to take it so I can go outside and do things and get tired so I can sleep at night. My day revolves around how I can make myself sleep.
Didn't you say that Remeron was an SNRI?
I used to take Wellbutrin (SDNRI) to just get myself exhausted by the end of the day and it helped me with the anxiety. It sounds backwards but it worked in its own weird way. Maybe just a little bit wouldn't hurt?
What about an antihistamine (doxylamine)? I use it only in extreme situations when I know for sure I can't fall asleep. It's so powerful that it would knock out a horse. Unfortunately the next day it makes me feel absolutely horrible.
What should I read first on BB? I pretty much know what to expect in terms of symptoms already. Where do I start?
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,781
This is a reply to # 2,054,157Hey Amber
It is my personal opinion of course, but one that is shared...
Taurine is an animo acid that effects neurotransmitters...personally in benzo and any form of drug WD I really dont think its best to be playing around with neurotransmitters...especially as to much of one can offset the other.
Zinc also effects nuerotransmitters...i started to take it, it made the anxiety worse, so i stopped and did some more research. Not advisable due to the way it can promote neurotrans levels, that potentially your brain isnt ready for yet. We have to heal the gaba receptors...adding gaba dosent do anything, as the receptors have been downgraded and need to regrow, like our nerves and muscles (hence chronic itching, skin burning and lower back pain and overall aches with in benzo WD). For example I tried Trytophan about a month into WD, that gave me a new hell, three weeks of intense brain zaps every few hours, and even more at night.
Tyrosine is amazing isnt it? makes one wide awake and physically ready? Yup, I tried that to when I first started with AF...I think the proof is in the effect, its stimulating, and anything stimulating is bad!
Anti histamines - other than remeron I have never tried them as we cant really get strong ones over the counter in the UK. Im going it alone, without any chemicals for as long as I can...I want things to reset naturally. Its hell, and has been possibly the worst three months of my life but it has to be done. I dont want to be popping pills anymore. But you know, we have to choose our own paths, I know people in BB have had success with anti-histamines and Remeron, some with Serequel, its your choose about which road to take.
Remember, we are trying to heal our brains, and we have to do this before we can heal everything else...putting more chemicals in and changing the way things work is only restricted and maybe damaging to the healing. Anti-depressants like benzos also effect the endocrine system quite heavily..
I used to spend my days climbing mountains, riding bikes, training in the dojo to try and make myself sleep.it never happened, yet i became more an more exhausted. Sherpa was exactly the same, we thought we could beat the sleep into submission but it dosent happen like that with AF, we become more and more wired and alert, with the body more and more drained in the process
You're also still taking xanax right Amber? have you started your taper yet? What dose are on at the mo?
I think you need to support your body with nutrition and calming supplements like magnesium, vit C being the most important. Potentially chromium if you find your blood Sugar goes unsteady like mine did, an get off the drugs and get through the acute withdrawal stage before trying to heal anything else. Comng off benzos is trauma to the body, we just gotta look after it as best we can..
As for BB, read the success stories and the blogs, look at the taper methods, do your introduction page telling your story. Ask some questions....people are not as nutritionally educated on there as we are here...but that can actually be nice not to get bogged down with a supplement for this,supplement for that...and most havent even heard of AF, even though they now have it due to the benzos!- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,779
This is a reply to # 2,054,172I'm trying to stabilize at 1.5 mg of Xanax per day.
And I already have problem sleeping.
I've been playing with it a range of 0.75 to 2.5 mg per day, so I'll need to see what is the baseline level where I can begin tapering.
The way I've been doing it by breaking one pill in pieces and take the tiny pieces sublingually is just prolonging the torture.
I'll read the methods they have on BB, titration looks interesting to me.
Amazing how I'm jumping on anything that looks promising, right?...
So hard to keep track of the goal ahead when the threat of insomnia and hallucinations is imminent...
Thanks- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
11,018
This is a reply to # 2,054,221We all do...I have an entire shoe box filled of magic potions to treat insomnia...none have ever worked apart from RElax All, but that has phenibut in it, so deffo a no no for WD.
I know this sounds a bit cruel, but im all about brutal honesty (as youve probably already figured!), you arent going to instantly stabalise when you drop a dose. You are going to feel bad..the idea with tapering is that you reduce the length of time that 'bad wave' happens,because your brain and body dosent have to catch up after being left far far behind like a CT.
Most on BB change over to valium from xanax..I believe that dose of xanax is around 25mg- 30mg of valium, valium comes in 2,5, and 10mg tabs, so you could make a far easier tapered withdrawal. Or do it the hardcore way!- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
11,538
This is a reply to # 2,054,242I only know how to take more stuff the hardcore way not the other way around:) LOL
I appreciate your brutal honesty, I noticed it from the beginning.
And the fact that you have hell of an experience yourself to back it up.
You have no idea how much you helped me with just engaging in this discussion! And I totally agree with your point of view on taking less "miracle" potions....
Don't be to harsh on me though..
I just realized after looking at the pill splitting schedule that I made a cut of 14% last week going from 1.75 mg to 1.5 mg.
And the week before Easter I cut 43% in under 1 week!....
No wonder I was jumping around like a monkey on those dr.Lam's supplements... Doing crazy yoga, standing on my head:)
Why does it only make sense when I see the percentages!!!! - Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,865
This is a reply to # 2,054,242I just realize the scope of all this...
Decided to write it down before I forgot
AF complicates the WD just as much as the WD complicates AF.
I was wondering why I was able to sometimes taper off huge dosages at a time and not feel the withdrawal pain until a few days later.
In a way low adrenal function allowed me to function "normally" until the reserves got completely depleted again.
It happened like 5 times over this past winter. I couldn't figure it out.
Every time I cut xanax I felt great for like a couple of days. It was inconsistent with what I'm used to experiencing. I mistakenly thought the WD became less acute.
Now that AF got better WD symptoms became more pronounced.
It makes so much sense to me now.
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
11,538
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
11,018
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,779
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,781
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,733
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... 155216
11 y
10,625
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Aerose91
11 y
10,790
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,692
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Aerose91
11 y
10,889
This is a reply to # 2,051,614
Hi, guys
I hope this might be helpful in recovery
You will need a metronome device that counts seconds for it to be effective. I have iPhone app called iBeat which is free and easy to use.
The technique is based on abdominal deep breathing so I won't explain that.
The idea behind it is to breath with the left and the right nostril on the even count of seconds which helps to balance the ANS.
In yoga they believe that have these two channels Ida and Pingala going along your spine which correspond roughly to two opposite qualities much like the yin and yang. (Cooling vs. heating, slow vs. fast, moon vs. sun etc.)
They also correspond anatomically to right and left cerebral hemispheres and in terms of the nervous system to two modes of the ANS: Ida -parasympathetic and Pingala -sympathetic.
Breathing through each nostril (left -Ida , right -Pingala) is thought to increase the activity of the PNS or the SNS depending through which particular nostril you are breathing.
They also believe that your body automatically switches between breathing more through one or the other nostril more than the other at even time intervals throughout the day in order to keep everything in balance. The total time of breathing through one particular side should never exceed the other.
When this process is disrupted the body gets sick.
So, when breathing on the precise count of seconds through each nostril you activate the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems for the even intervals throughout the breathing cycle and that helps to restore the balance without allowing one side of the ANS to dominate another. The body then will become more balanced not necessarily more calm or wired.. There is no immediate result because it works on more subtle levels.
That's the general idea.
How to do it:
You should be in a sitting position with back straight.
Inhale with the left on the count of 6 seconds, hold for 3, exhale with the right on 6 , hold 3, inhale with the right on 6, hold on 3, exhale with the left on 6 and hold for 3. The ratio is 2:1:2:1.
At first you should practice it without holding breath until it becomes more even and controlled. The ratio has to be precise, but how many seconds each breath should be depends on the individual capacity. I started with 6/3 and worked my way up to 18/9 over the past year. However when I moved to a more humid climate I had to go back to breathing on 12/6.
Always start with the inhale through the left nostril and finish with the exhale through the left nostril. That's one cycle.
You have to do SEVEN cycles. I don't know why seven but it seems to be important in the beginning.
Never force breath especially when holding it. It might trigger too much sympathetic activity if you do. The most important is to breath smoothly and for the exact number of seconds per each side.
It is not a breathing technique that helps you calm down or sleep. It might work sometimes but it is not meant for that. It is supposed to aid the body in regulating the ANS and is supposed to be practiced daily in the morning and preferably after shower.
After some time you might want to add visualization much like the spinal pranayama technique but in the beginning it's more important to just learn the basics.
I don't know if I forgot to mention something important
Ask me if i did.
Hope that helps
Amber
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... Aerose91
11 y
10,961
This is a reply to # 2,054,178Amber-
Those are great breathing tactics, I've been using them during meditation and yoga for a while now and it really does work.
I know it must be so hard tapering that crap when all u want is to be off it. However, all I can say is that a cold turkey is hell- as I'm sure Mikey can second. The symptoms hit u like a freight train and are relentless. Of course if I could go back I would taper but hindsight is always 20/20. I know another tactic people use on BB is to crush the pill into power and measure out slightly less amounts. I guess it's easier than trying to cut the pill. I'm not sure if you already tried that though.
And man, I'm not sure why you can't find me on BB. it's just "Clark". I've been a member for probably 9 months now. But for what it's worth I have never done any coffee enemas, or any enemas for that matter. I'm not sure who that is on the board. I'm too weak right now to try any new methods. I'm sticking to the basics.
I'm actually learning how to do muscle testing to try and dial in which supplements are best for me. It takes some getting used to and belief, but given that we have a whole other issue with supplements possibly effecting the down regulated GABA system ill take what I can get.
How are you guys feeling symptom-wise these days?- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,703
This is a reply to # 2,054,515Hi, Clark
I actually did see you on BB yesterday, so I don't know why Mikey couldn't find you. I just joined there and learning different tapering methods. I have to admit it does give me hope.
I hit a wall in my recovery and in my tapering progress this winter and only now I begin to understand what's been happening to me. I found so many answers on this particular forum when I first found out about AF. I knew I was harming myself taking all those drugs but never looked at it from the body's perspective. Think of this intricate system of neuroendocrine responses and hormones that are regulated with delicate precision and balance!... And then you take something like xanax and hit this intelligent yet fragile system with it...In the context of AF I finally learned to appreciate how wise our body is and how badly we hurt it with those chemicals...
As for the benzos I thought I knew everything about them already. It's been a pain for me for many years, I learned to ignore it.
I tried to CT xanax few times and was very determined. I didn't sleep at all for up to a week, forgot how to speak english, then forgot my name, then what the shower is for, then saw my dead relatives and the list goes on... The relief of symptoms never came. After watching me chat with dead people for a couple of days my husband just couldn't take this anymore and put a little in a glass of water...But it was at least 3-4 years ago and I was stronger then. I can't even imagine what's going to happen to me now if I attempt to do the same. And I don't even want to mention the physical side...I'm just terrified of losing my mind mostly.
Amazing what a little colorful pill can do.
Why would anyone would "shove coffee up their ass" (lol, Mx) when going through this kind of stuff?.... How is that going to help?... Actually how is that even possible?... You got to have people helping you with this cause it sounds way to complicated for a person going through benzo WD. It's kind of funny in a bizarre way....
I'm going to figure out how to taper gently. I just know when it's going to be down to the very last piece it will become a struggle. I can probably get down to under a mg of xanax with direct taper and then switch to valium like many do.
I have to take it 6-8 times throughout the day sublingually in tiny little pieces of a 1 mg pill. It worked well until just recently. I would lower the dosage and feel great for like a day or two for some reason. Then I would have a really bad adrenal crash and insomnia became an issue again, so I had to go back to the initial dosage. It was strange, so I started thinking about AF and xanax connection. That's why I posted this. And I'm glad I did cause it really helps to know I'm not alone who has this situation struggling with AF and WD at the same time. It's sooo confusing to me in terms of symptoms that it took me some time to tie them together through the HPA axis.
It's amazing how much just being able to UNDERSTAND what is happening to you helps the recovery.
The worst symptoms are insomnia and stabbing pain in the upper back when I meditate. Loss of memory too. I hope it will come back...
- Re: Getting off of Xanax and AF reco... amber1921
11 y
10,703
This is a reply to # 2,051,614
I was so frustrated and confused on why after being clean a month I felt no progress had been made. I had thought that it was like other substance recovery in that after a few days the physical part is over and its purely a mental challenge. With xanax there was never that divide, and after reading someones account of feeling that way for a year, I knew I had to find another route.
I started taking valium and tramadol so I could get some measure of a life back. I did this for a year and then I weened off (only over a couple of weeks) and have been good ever since.
This was 2008 and in that time you could order any prescriptions over internet or phone without seeing a doctor easily. I dont know if its the same now, but i was able to do this without the help of any medical professionals.
Good luck to all that are living this nightmare. I hope which ever path you choose works out.
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