if you read carefully they are all open liars and building a concensus of pretend, which is the way they got their false doctrines to begin with. the lord is teaching me a ton here. and all i had to do was obey him. im hitting the jackpot. they have made it clear they are incorrigible. no efforts needed there. lets see what they do. im paying very close attention and its fascinating. just remember, when people speak, they generally speak of themselves regardless of the subject matter. i know these people like the back of my hand now. if you poke this tangle of snakes too hard they will un-knot and scatter.thats the other reason i tryt o stick to this one forum. it makes them come to me.