Re: Cholesterol stones

 

 first question is why do james' supporters always feel the need to coddle his ego ever so gingerly before disagreeing with him? is the cult pressure so strong?

Not everyone is a parasitical jerk like some of the "liver flush" supporters who come out of the woodwork any chance they get to take cheap shots.

second, you do bring up some good points, the same points others have brought up ad nauseum. both bitters and fat/oil stimulate the liver and gall bladder to release. the Liver Flush is a stronger stimulus than bitters. why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Thankyou, you just answered what I was going to have to explain to you.  Yes, both bitters and olive oil can stimulate the release of bile.  But bitters work by increasing bile, which helps to dissolve gallstones.  As you pointed out the oil is a stronger stimulator of this.  Thus the problem.  The stronger contractions increase the risk of lodging a real stone in the bile ducts if present.  Bitters do not cause these strong contractions.  Why is it so hard for the "liver flush" supporters to understand such simple concepts, especially when it has been explained to the them in detail so many times?

third, james has never addressed the fact that bitters also carry their own risk for people who have stones. it clearly states on many herbal bitter labels 'do not take if you have a history of stones'. in point of fact it is more dangerous to take bitters if you have stones than it is if you perform a liver flush precisely because bitters are a weaker stimulant and have more of a chance of causing stones NOT to exit.

LOL!!!  What a load of crap.  First of all as you pointed out the bitters do not cause the strong contractions of the gallbladder.  So at least you got one thing right.  But as pointed out so many times IF there are real gallstones present one larger than the size that the bile ducts can expand can lodge in the ducts leading to pancreatitis and requiring emergency surgery.  Something that it is not a risk with bitters, which dissolve the stones instead of trying to force them out.  And this does not change the fact that no one from the LF supporters has proven that what they have expelled were real gallstones and not soap stones.  Although the people who did send these off to real labs confirmed that these so-called "stones" were really saponified olive oil, otherwise known as "soap stones".  Why do you keep leaving these facts out LisaMarie?

there was a study done (dont have time to dig of the reference) that cold pressed oil further increases the levels of cholecystokinin which increase the force of contraction as compared with heated oils. one of the many things that makes The Liver Flush a powerful cleansing protocol.

Which again means more risk of lodging a stone IF real gallstones are present.  This still does not mean that those big soft soap stones are actually gallstones.

if liver flushes carry the risk of getting a stone stuck, then they conversely carry the possibility of doing exactly what they are designed to do... clear stones out of the liver and gall bladder.

As I have said in the past the ingestion of oils can help expel sludge and tiny stones.  I have never denied that.  What I have consistently questioned are the claims that those big squishy green blobs are gallstones even though they do not  resemble real gallstones and the lab analyses have shown differently.   So far the LF supporters have come up with ZERO evidence to prove these claims.

the absolute nonsense that james expounds is that yes the liver flush does cause bile and sludge to move out of the liver but that the biliary tubing and the sphincter of oddi are not elastic whatsoever.

I never claimed they were not elastic.  Why do the LF supporters keep claiming that I said things I never said just to avoid backing their claims with evidence like I have?  Their complete and blatant dishonesty speaks volumes!!!  If people want to read my old posts I clearly state that the magnesium works as a smooth muscle relaxant.  If they want more specific details the magnesium works like a calcium channel blocker to relax smooth muscle such as the sphincter of oddi.  Unfortunately some people think that the only way to win in a debate is to lie, lie and lie about what the other person really said.

this is nonsense as all smoothe muscle in the body is elastic and will stretch.

Yes, due to the protein elastin as I have pointed out in so many of my posts.  So why are you lying claiming that I said smooth muscle was not elastic?  All I said is that the tissue has is limits of expansion.  Just like a rubber band is elastic, but will only stretch so far.  You have really shown your true colors with your deceitful tactics.

i have heard this argument from some heavy hitter natural healers as well. they are all wrong about this.

i notice most of his postings here are just variations on the theme of 'i won this debate' and also more typical rudeness and condescension.

I have noticed that most of your posts have been nothing but attacks and lies.  You have yet to provide any proof that liver flushing really expels marble sized and larger stones.  Although you came up with a really entertaining argument about the vaginal canal can expand to give birth to a baby.  That is great information to know if you ever give birth to a 15 pound gallstone.  Otherwise it is a pretty worthless fact since it is not the same thing as the bile ducts.

i googled 'fecal soap' last night for images. guess what?

on all of google there isn't a single picture of fecal soap!!!!

LOL!!!  Try searching something like Google docs if it not too much of a strain on you to look at anything other than pictures..  Or better yet go back and look at the various scientific studies I already presented to you in the past.

of all the strange things that humanity has captured on film google has just about everything, except for, ........... fecal soap!!!!

Gee, I found those scientific articles on fecal soaps using a Google search.  Of course I was smart enough to look under a search other than simply for pictures.

there were so many errors in his fecal soap theory that it was beyond debate. when i pointed out all of the errors point by point last time, james began to get overbearingly rude.

Are you really that delusional.  Last time you tried to argue against fecal soaps you really got your a** whooped big time with all the evidence I presented from credible sources.  You just had no concept about the process of saponification and erroneously thought that the process required hundreds of degrees of heat, which was clearly disproven by the research I presented.  For that matter you can stick your hand in an ice cold solution of sodium hydroxide and guess what is going to form on your skin? That's right, SOAP!!!!  So you really need to sharpen your research skills a lot before making such ludicrous comments if you don't want to make yourself look so foolish.

i admit that in some obscure studies it is probably possible for the body to make tiny tiny amounts of saponified oil soap. the tiny amounts of hydroxide present in the intestine are nowhere near enough to produce these large amounts of stones that people are producing. bile is not alkaline enough to make soap out of oil. do the research. it is lacking in alkalinity by orders of magnitude to saponify oil.

Yet saponification occurs in the body as the studies below show.  So clearly you don't have a clue what you are talking about again.

the small amounts of alkaline phosphatase present in the small intestine is not alkaline enough to saponify oil.

Clearly you are clueless as to what alkaline phosphatase really is.  Not surprising at all.

I did a Google search and it took me less than one minute to find this information of fecal soaps in humans:

http://www.jacn.org/content/19/suppl_2/119S.long

"Lipids, especially milk fats, are thought by some to form insoluble soaps with calcium, reducing its bioavailability. However, although this chemical reaction is possible, it does not, in practice, interfere with calcium absorption [

4]. The dietary soaps are dissociated at the low pH of the stomach and cannot reform until they reach the ileum, which is beyond the main area of calcium absorption. Fecal soaps are formed from free long-chain saturated fatty acids and unabsorbed calcium. The saturated fatty acids in milk and cheese can displace calcium from phosphates in the ileum, forming less soluble soaps which are excreted, but this has no effect on the absorption of ingested calcium [22]."

Just goes to show how easy it is to find information on subjects if you know what you are doing and know how to do something other than look at pictures like some people.

It took me less that 2 more minutes to find this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/lipidstheirchemi02deue/lipidstheirchemi02deue_d...

 

"Frazer has analyzed possible mechanisms for promoting emulsification which will function under the conditions listed above. Bile salts, sometimes considered to be the only essential requirement for producing an emulsion, form only a crude emulsion, with low stability compared with that known to exist in the lumen of the gut. In the second place, soap has been considered as the component in the intestinal contents which renders possible the production of a stable emulsion.  It is true that soap is an excellent emulsifying agent in an alkaline solution, but it will not function at a pH on the acid side of 7.5. It has been suggested that so-called "acid soaps" cause emulsification, but Frazer discounts the effectiveness of such compounds, and indicates their complete ineffectiveness in the presence of calcium. Although the presence of cholesterol may enhance the emulsifying action of soap by the formation of soap/cholesterol complexes,  such changes will not alter the pH-conditioned character of the soap emulsion." 

Oh, and look at this comment in the article:

"It is well known that soaps may comprise a considerable proportion of the stools, especially in the case of subjects on high calcium diets and when abnormalities in fat absorption obtain."

Just amazing what can be found when someone actually takes the time to do real research rather than simply looking for pretty pictures!!!

And yet even more from this research article on fecal soaps:

"In normal feces, the fat content makes up a maximum of only 25 to  30% of the dried weight of the feces, and the neutral fat constitutes only about one-fourth of this total. When a bile deficiency occurs, the total fat may comprise as much as 70% of the total dried feces, but it consists almost entirely of fatty acids and soaps.  Such a deficient fat utilization results not from a failure in lipolysis, although this is slowed up, but rather from a failure to absorb the fatty acids and soaps in the absence of the solvent action of the bile salts."

"This disease also goes by the name of idiopathic steatorrhea. The stools are frequent and voluminous, containing a large proportion of fats, fatty acids, and soaps."

"Bile contains small amounts of cholesterol, phospholipids, fats, soaps, and bile salts."

"According to West and Todd, 682 the average composition and range in composition of human fistula bile, in parts per 1000, as reported by various workers since 1900, are as follows: total lipids, 3.4 (2.9-4.2); neutral fat, 1.1 (0.4-3.0); fatty acids (including soaps), 1.1 (0.8-1.4); phosphatides, 0.6 (0.5-0.6); and cholesterol, 1.2 (0.8-1.7). A similar compilation, by these authors, of the composition of human bladder bile gives the following values: total lipids, 22.5 (19-26) ; neutral fat, 3.7 (1.5-5.6); fatty acids (including soaps), 9.7 (9-10.9); phosphatides, 2.0 (1.8-2.2); and cholesterol, 6.3 (3.5-9.3)."

"It is now known that, in addition to the bile acids, the phospholipids and soaps in bile contribute to the emulsifying activity."

Oops, LisaMarie just got her a** whooped major again.  This would not happen as often if you would simply learn how to do some proper research before posting.

if the body produced hydroxides in any appreciable amounts we would all be dead of alkaline burns.

Yet the body does produce small levels of hydroxides.  And people drink alkaline waters such as Kangan water, which is also composed of hydroxides.  Yet they are not dead nor dying of alkaline burns.

the stomach certainly is not capable of saponifying oil because it is acidic and not alkaline at all.

Gee, you got something right.  Hallelujah!!!

if one were to swallow pure lye with the olive oil, then james would certainly have a point. but then everyone who undertook the liver flush would be dead or in ICU in the hospital.

When you cannot win by simple facts, exaggerate.  Again I have posted plenty of evidence of fecal and bile soaps, which took me less than a few minutes to find because I know how to do proper research.  You ought to try it sometime.

in the last round we repeatedly asked james to manufacture soap stones in his secret laboratory from any fluid or mixture of fluids that exists in the body. he never produced results.

I told you exactly how to do it.  So why did you refuse to do the experiment?  Were you afraid of being proven wrong again?  Especially after I already posted evidence previously showing that fecal soaps are not only real but also well known?

i post this challenge to anyone else. take your ox bile tables, hydrochloric acid, intestinal enzymes and oil and have a big party, see if you can manufacture soap stones with these ingredients.

So why don't you try the experiment I told you to LisaMarie, which will show you how easy they are to form.  I challenge you to try it.  Stop trying to get everyone else to prove you wrong.  Why don't you try proving yourself right for once?

i agree with the other posters here in that i remain totally unconvinced of his so called evidence. he can scream it a million times in a million different insulting and rude ways, but i am inconvinced. the ruder he gets, and the more he resorts to critiquing spelling errors, the less and less convinced i become.

LOL!!!  I was responding to another poster critiquing my spelling error after posting all night and 6 hours past when I was planning to go to sleep.  So I pointed out that he can just as easily make mistakes like that.  Yet you conveniently left that out because as usual you are trying to deceive people by twisting the real facts.  A clear sign of desperation!

i think james does help some people out in his forum. and i doubt that he is motivated by financial gain, though this is still a possibility. what is worse though is that his motivation seems to stem from a worse source, ego.

Hmmm...  you consider trying to protect people from quackery and maintaining our rights to use alternative medicines with some freedom is ego?  Clearly you either do not understand the definition or you were simply taking another opportunity to take a pot shot at me as you do every chance you get.  So which is it LisaMarie?

i think that some people who he considers his intellectual inferiors came up with and are using a very powerful tool for health called a liver flush and for some reason this burns him up inside. in his forum he reigns supreme but in the real world and in the open debate forum he can't leverage the blind unquestioning supplication he has garnered there and this also burns him up and he resorts to being rude and insulting as a defense mechanism.

Did you fail psychology as well?

Let's profile you.   All you do in your posts about me is insult me and make up lies.  Typical passive aggressive behavior.  You also show clear sociopath tendencies and cannot stand to be proven wrong.  So you ignore evidence presented to you then try and discredit the other person by claiming they made incorrect statements they never made so you can try and show they are wrong.  Your ego is massive, which is part of the reason you cannot stand to be proven wrong, nor can admit when you are wrong.  Again to make sure that the ego is not popped by being proven wrong you ignore the evidence presented to you.  You have a clear need to be the center of attention so you rally behind a cause that will make you popular, which is attacking me, and you take every opportunity to do making up lies as you go to make me look bad and yourself a hero.

i see a few uneventful success stories stemming from his forum, i grant him that. but the vast majority of people in his forum are just spinning around in circles with their health. perhaps they need to perform some liver flushes to make some real headway with their health.

Perfect proof of what I just profiled about you above.  At least you are reading my forum, which does show an attempt to actually learn something factual.

 

 

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