Matthew Winkler....Narcissist? 
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17 y
4,669
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I've been following the story of Mary Winkler who shot her husband Matthew, a minister, with some interest. It sounds like he had NPD. After reading every single word on the heartlessbitches.com website, I'd say he was flying several dozen redflags. I read somewhere that NPD is very common amongst those who go into the ministry, artists, and surgeons.
Anyone else read about this?- Re: Matthew Winkler....Narcissist? #2984
17 y
4,350
This is a reply to # 850,620I was wondering that myself.
When I first heard about the case, I thought she must have had some reason, and perhaps it abuse or else was he was molesting the child.
The sad thing is, if she had left him, he probably would have killed her. One thing I don't understand is why she didn't leave him early on at the first sign of disrespect. The first time he trampled her spirit, tried to dominate or control her, or make her feel lesser. Although, abuse can slowly creep up on you. I've experienced it, although not physically. They test you and see what they can get away with. The first time, you think it is out of character, you misunderstood, they are having a bad day (his father had a stroke), and you give them the benefit of the doubt. They apologize, and everything is wonderful, until they do it again. And the initial stages of love tend to make one blind. I'm glad I left extremely early in the relationship. Even then it caused me alot of stress. The key is they always blame you, and never take responibility for their own actions or their life.
The problem is, most people jump into bed before they really know the person. You have to really observe, how do they treat their family, how do they treat children, elderly, and animals, how do they treat people they think are beneath them, such as waiters, cashiers, maids, or people at work that they supervise? How do they react when someone cuts them off in traffic? Do they generally have a positive or negative view of people and life? Do they help strangers in need without expecting something back? How do they behave when they suffer a setback or disappointment? Are they generally easy going or do they like to be in control? Are they tolerant and respectful of others who are different (race, gender, disability, age, politics, religion, sexual orientation, hobbies) in general? Do they keep reminding you of some small thing they did for you? Are they high-maintenance (demanding? Do they tend to blame others for what happens to them? Do they like mean, negative humor and make jokes at other people's expense? When you disagree, do they do so respectfully? Can they reach a fair compromise? Do you feel comfortable being yourself when you are with them? Do they care for you when you are ill or have a problem, or do they trivialize your experience or even compete, my headache is worse than your flu? Do they seem relaxed and open, or nervous and secretive? Are they jealous and possessive? Do they try to limit your freedom, friendships, hobbies, education, and look down on things that are important to you? Do you both do about the same amount of work on the relationship? Are they overly interested in your physical appearance and sex, or how much money you make and what you own? Is it a man who thinks of women as sex objects? Is it a woman who thinks of a man as a cash machine? These are two sides of the same coin, and these women and men usually end up unhappily together becaue they are both superficial. These are all clues to what the person is really like underneath.
Mine didn't get along with his family, or his co-workers, and had very negative general beliefs about everyone, that was a clue. Americans are materialistic and superficial, all women cheat, black people are criminals, people who live in cities have bad values, etc. He would even make broad negative judgements about his friends based on a small observation, Mary gets her nails done, so she is a stupid and superficial person. I was left wondering, if that's how hard he is on his friends and family, how is he going to treat me? And after I talked to him on the phone, no matter how good my mood was before, I would always find my energy lowered. Another clue. He was sneaky and would give me lots of compliments, but there was always a mean dig in there somewhere.
In general, I tend to be careful of doctors, lawyers, or men that are religious as opposed to spiritual. There are too many religions that believe the woman is subordinate to the man, and the women tolerate it, so the men grow up without respect for women. And money and power tend to corrupt anyone who is not spiritually advanced. I know there are exceptions, but it's true more often than not. But there is tremendous range here. For example, I would stay away from a corporate lawyer for sure, but I would consider dating a lawyer that specialized in say, environment, animal rights, working with the poor, anything that showed he had a conscience.
I never thought about artists, I don't personally know any artists well, but I would have thought they would be more sensitive. Who knows? Interesting.
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- Re: Matthew Winkler....Narcissist? #68716
17 y
4,196
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This is a reply to # 850,752Insightful post, here! Long response and I apologize, in advance.
I haven't kept up with the Winkler case so much - I don't have cable television and I rarely listen to the news unless it's NPR in the car. However, I can clearly recall that my own suicide seemed a viable alternative to living the rest of my life with my ex - when I had gotten to THAT point, I had no friends, no family, no independent source of income, etc, and I was so physically sick that I was unable to function without running to the doctor for more drugs. Once I got away, I never needed antidepressants, again, and my physical ailments diminished to near-zero with the exception of Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms, which I'm coping with quite well (no meds, thank you!).
Some of the most well-known public figures in history were narcissistic. The most important aspect to understanding how a narcissist works his/her prey is that their reactions to OUR emotions have been carefully practiced and studied to "reflect" appropriate responses, although they are not capable of hiding their narcissism, forever. Red flags were always popping up and, most Survivors can look back and actually trace, event-by-event, how their self esteem was systematically shot down over time.
I'm a fine and ceramic artist and one of the most interesting things about artists is that the majority of us (me, included) would have developed into NPD's, ourselves, but for working out our issues through some form of artistic expression. That does NOT mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that artists will not be NDP - Picasso was a narcissist, as was Dali and many, many others. ANYONE can develop into a narcissist. I work with artists on a daily basis. Some of them are sensitive to the plight of others, while my former instructor and mentor is a classic female NDP and has grouped her followers together in such a manner that every aspect of her personal responsibilities have been delegated to her followers, down to pulling weeds and cleaning her studio. I walked away from it, even though she is an extraordinarily knowledgeable instructor. I did not want to be a part of her Club and answer calls to take her herd of animals to the vet on an hour's notice! LOL!!!! I can't very well be practicing my craft(s) if I'm attending to someone else's responsibilities, now can I?
Most of the post is referenced to women being victims of men, but there are countless people who are abused (emotionally/physically) by their parents, siblings, "best" friends, supervisors, coworkers, etc., in classic NDP games that are more subtle and even more controlling. Narcissism is more recognized in "romantic" relationships because the trauma and drama is so overwhelming and so complete. If we're able to walk away from an NDP spouse or significant other, we do so under auxilliary power with very little left of our Selves. Walking away from an NDP parent is much, much harder and leaves us in even worse tatters than an ex-lover.
True, the sexual issues that are often the center of NDP abuse have become ridiculous - check out myspace.com and look at the 12-16 year old girls who are selling themselves with suggestive attire, provacative exhibitionism, and utterly inappropriate visual and literary imagery! An NDP will use sex as a reward and punishment until the victim gets to the point that sex only equals humiliation, and these little girls are setting themselves up for dehumanization, abuse, and worse. Red Flag #1: Whirlwind romances and intensive/instantaneous sexual interaction are both common traits of an NDP casting, luring, and reeling in his/her prey. A healthy relationship is not based upon sex, period. A good relationship will yeild "good" sex while a bad relationship can yeild "good" sex with tragic consequences.
In fact, victims of narcissistic abuse often develop into NDP, as well, if only as a method of protection. Unless they step away from the abuse and get intensive therapy/counseling, they could very well end up as abusive and narcissistic as their primary abusers, whether the NPD in their lives is a parent, coach, sibling, friend, etc.
With regard to organized religion, remember WHY religious beliefs have always been "organized:" strictly for control and definitely NOT to Save the Masses. "If you do not believe what I do, you will not earn your way into Heaven," is how most organized religions are based, NOT upon, "Do good to other human beings and it will come back to you." Organized religions employ the "withold/reward" system of dehumanization. So, I'm also very, very careful of anyone in authority, particularly policemen, state troopers, judges, etc...they believe that they hold the ULTIMATE authority over "regular pukes" and most of their ilk are the most devious and abusive NDP's out there.
It seems as if we are raising up more and more NDP's, and I believe that it's primarily due to the fact that we no longer communicate, as a Society. Everything we need is either on a television, laptop, internet, Cell Phone , or some other device that places a barrier between discussion and interaction. And, the permissive culture that kids are living in, today, says, "It's all about ME." Just my take on it.
Excellent post! Thanks for offering some fresh insights!
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- You are right #2984
17 y
3,995
This is a reply to # 850,846It was a whirlwind romance in my case. We had been long distance internet friends for a while, but he became romantically interested in me only after he saw my picture. That should have been a clue. He asked me to marry him very early and inappropriately in the relationship, before we had even met in person. It was almost like he wanted to trap me before I figured things out. My intuition immediately told me something was wrong, but he had this whole other good and sensitive personality with so many interests in common I thought he was my soulmate.
He did lots of inappropriate and genrally disrespectful things that made me nervous. Like, the first picture he ever sent me was one taken in his underwear, lol! I remember being shocked, but then I thought guys will be guys, right? He also wanted me to send him similar (and worse) pictures of myself, sorry I'm not stupid! And he would always talk about how he loved slutty lingerie. And I would say, too bad, lol! Then he would say, of course, I like you for your mind and personality, yeah, right! He also made a big fuss because I wouldn't sleep with him on the first date and told me there was something wrong with me. I am glad I never slept with him, I never did trust him from the beginning because of how he acted. He just kept making me like him less and less.
Narcisists seem to have a public personality they use to make others like and respect them. His was that he did dog rescue. That is one of the reasons I was attracted to him in the first place and had a hard time believing what I saw because it was so out of character for such a "good" person. He would always show me emails from women saying what a good person he was for helping a dog, especially for a man, too bad all men weren't like him, etc. "See, I am a good person and everyone likes me, look what I do!" He would cry at dog movies. But, I don't think it was real, I remember him wanting to get rid of his puppy because he chewed his shoe, some rescuer! And when he met my dog, he said all the right things, but there was no sincerity or warmth behind it, it was more robotic. She was not his preferred breed, and she was a mutt. One day she came up to me for kisses while I was on the phone with him, and he got really jealous and angry. So I am not sure whether narcissists can actually care about someone or something else or if it is all just a cover. I guess Winkler's case is similar with him being a pastor.
I still feel sorry for him, because I know that something awful must have happened to make him like that, and he needs healing. I still pray for him. But I deserve better, and contact with him just brings me down. I have a male friend who says a man would never put up with it, he would dump a woman at the first instance of abuse, and would not feel sorry for her. He also at the outset told me to be careful, because he had asked me did this person become interested in you only after he saw your picture. And he was right, I just didn't want to hear it.
About the young girls dressing provocatively, they do it because they think it gives them power. They are not used to having power, being young and female makes you unimportant, so they don't know that real power comes from within. But, hopefully, they eventually find out that who they attract in that way doesn't respect them and is only using them and will quickly move on to the next victim when they get bored or they have a disagreement. It is a mistake of the young, a lack of sense of self. Maybe it's a lesson they have to learn.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I find narcissism very interesting, and wonder if there is a way to help them be whole. I think it has to do with how old they were when they suffered the trauma, that is the developmental age they get stuck in.- Being "whole" #68716
17 y
4,201
This is a reply to # 851,550It would be a wonderful thing if someone could find a "cure" for narcissism and/or abuse, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, a narcissist has to be willing and prepared to be brutally honest, courageous, and diligent in order to whip their personality disorder. That's the difference between a definitive mental disorder and narcissism - one is organic while the other is a "learned" behavior. There is no drug that will offset their choice in behaviors, nor is there any sure-fire therapy that will be effective. Most narcissists who end up in counseling or therapy quickly choose to end their sessions because they will not tolerate facing truth where their behavioral choices are concerned. I pity an NDP, but I do not feel sorry for them - they deliberately bait, lure, and snare victims for the sole purpose of feeding their own personal needs whether those needs are social, sexual, career-oriented, emotional, etc. My pity only goes to the point where it is a shame that anyone (perpetrator OR victim) refuses to choose a life of beauty and acceptance.
You hit the nail on the proverbial head when you mentioned that he seemed to be involved in altruistic endeavors - dog rescue. Narcissists will typically choose an interest that will feed their supplies, particularly in the areas of altruism. Their involvment in these activities is part of their emotional disguise. Every reaction is learned and every action is calculated, either deliberately or subconsciously. Their motives have nothing to do with "saving" anything other than their facade.
Often, narcissists will have very few (if any) long-term friends. If they DO have a network of friends, none of them will be gathered together in the same place at the same time, if the NDP has anything to do with it. I could never understand why my ex was so reluctant to entertain guests until I learned about their web of deceit. It is impossible for them to remember what they told each person and they understand that gathering more than a couple of people together at one time will spell disaster for their treachery. People will talk and they will be found out.
Your experience with the NDP sounds just like my ex! Almost immediately after I left him, he began trolling the internet for smart women, in particular, and would feed them the most outrageous stories about why I left him. He targeted accomplished and educated women, specifically, because it was the greatest high for him to tear them down. I believe, at last count, it was about 9 women that he damaged. And, his hatred of others is baseless - he has taught both of my sons to detest women, people of color, different cultures, etc. If they disagreed with his views, they suffered the consequences.
Good for you for recognizing the red flags and for not allowing yourself to become that man's supply! You might want to consider writing a series of articles on how you were able to identify the warnings, avoid the bait, and make a very wise decision for your Self!
- It's still hard for me to believe #2984
17 y
4,229
This is a reply to # 851,618Even though I got out very early, it is hard for me to believe it actually happened. It is so hard for me to believe people think like that, because I try to see the good in everyone, it so foreign and different to the way I think.
The red flags are anything that makes you uncomfortable. The key is recogizing that something is bothering you, however small it seems, it just doesn't feel right to you. These feelings are TRUTH. You have to be in touch with your gut feelings, your intuition, or spirit, whatever you call it. If I had not listened to that and instead tried to analyze the situation intellectually, it would have been much worse. I became alert and saw a pattern of disrespect, especially toward women, but it was also very general toward anyone he disagreed with, however small the issue was. You are also right that he didn't have friends, he didn't get along with family, or co-workers, never had anyone over, etc. All his friendships were on-line, mostly dog lists. He would say he was very selective about women, friendships, etc. But the reality is he just turned everyone off, and I would have seen it right away had I lived near him. Even thousands of miles away by phone, the negative energy was obvious, he was a big energy vampire.
They think very differently than most people. It was like talking to someone from an alternate reality where black means white, plus means minus, etc. I could never figure him out, his reactions were almost always the opposite of what you would expect. But, they were almost exclusively negative. An acquaintance of his tried as a surprise to fix him up with a woman because he felt sorry for him. I had just left him. His response was, how dare he fix me up with someone wearing makeup and jewelry, she's materialistic, I hate her, he has some nerve setting me up! Who does he think he is? He was enraged! He was going to give the friend a piece of his mind! He told me this himself, when he was hoping I would come back! That was his attidude. Most people would have given the woman a chance and been grateful that his friend cared enough to set him up, said thanks for thinking of me anyway, but no, not him! So maybe his friend will catch on. That lucky woman dodged a screaming bullet as well. It's like he is lacking something fundamental in connecting and relating to people, almost as if they were things or props.
He was totally lacking in normal social boundaries. The kind of person who would snoop through your stuff behind your back, lie or forge your name on a legal document. He actually stole my email to spy on me. He would interrogate me as a demand to know where I was, what I did, and who I was with. I would say, "whatever I wanted to do with whoever I was with wherever I was" then he would say, I'm not interrogating you, it's just that I care so much, I want to protect you. It only happened twice, the second time I told him I was on to him and NEVER interrogate me again! Whenver he knew he crossed the line, he would retreat, be nice and act as if he cared and I misunderstood.
I can't help but feel sorry for him. He makes his life so deliberately difficult and is missing out on many of joys of life. The Law of Attraction at work. Very sad. I wonder what the actual cause is, where the break happened, and if this could be prevented with therapy at a young age.- Therapy #68716
17 y
4,159
This is a reply to # 851,693Most all of the research material with regard to narcissism explains the learned behavior as a method of coping at a very early age - formative years around 3-6. At this time, the child is either living in an environment of ridicule and abuse, neglect, or with a narcissist parent. In my case, both of my sons were born into an extraordinarily abusive environment and learned by watching their father and me interact to determine what was "normal" and expected. The only way that intervention for a child can occur is for them to be utterly and completely removed from the abusive environment with no further contact with the narcissist. Once they are in a safe environment, therapy and counseling can begin. Sadly, as in my own case, realization of the abusive environment comes far too late to be of any help to the children. Unfortunately, legal protection for children just does not exist. Courts generally maintain the parents' rights to visit (or, maintain custody) with their children. Even the most seasoned counselor/therapist cannot diagnose a narcissist - by the time doors are starting to open as to the person behind the face, the NDP abruptly ends sessions and the diagnosis falls short. In a Court of Law, the NDP can literally get away with murder and cause the victim(s) of their abuse to appear to be self-absorbed, mindless, selfish, overbearing, hysterical nutbags.
With regard to counseling and therapy, thousands were spent on individual and group counseling in a vain attempt to "save and heal" my eldest son. As an adult, he opted to take the path of deceit and damage and followed his father, almost exactly to the letter. The sins that he has deliberately perpetrated against other human beings have been worse than those that were perpetrated by his father against me and our sons.
There is no cure for narcissism unless the NDP wants to be cured. Even then, it will require courage, extreme effort, and self-sacrifice in order to wring out the facts, acknowledge the damage that they've inflicted, and forgive themselves for having done it. After all of that, the desire to fall back into their self-serving behaviors will, forever, be a constant nagging in the backs of their minds. Nothing is ever "hopeless," but some things are "unlikely." We must always hold out hope for another person's healing, even if it is unlikely that they will opt for healing. I pray for my ex's healing, though I do not pity him, one iota. I pity the child(ren) that was damaged, but not the adult that makes the choices to deliberately (and, with malice aforethought) perpetrate heinous sins against other human beings for the sole purpose of their personal entertainment.
- The "science" of evil. been there done that
17 y
4,220
This is a reply to # 852,233It is not just "how good people go wrong" that has interested me, but from personal experience, I have learned that narcissists are a special breed that don't fall into the category of "people"/human in the way that we understand "PEOPLE"/society to be (they don't operate/function as "people"). Just as pyromaniacs and firefighters might regard fire as an "animal", so can evil be regarded as an animal. From personal experience, this "animal" is the life blood of the narcissist. It is their intent to cause evil, terror, abuse, or destruction (to FOIL nobility, goodness and order) everywhere they go because goodness, stability, order, and truth are incompatible with their life. The only exception is that their altruistic endeavors must remain intact. I call their altrustic endeavors a REDEMPTIVE VOCATION because it's not just meant to fool other people, it's meant to fool themselves so that they can continue to think of themselves as "GOOD" (if they didn't have an altruistic vocation, they couldn't redeem their conscience and wouldn't be able to continue their schemes and narcissistic lifestyle. Even hardened criminals don't choose a redemptive vocation, they just own up to being criminals. Narcissists don't behave according to logic, they are illogical, naysayers, NECESSARILY contrary and MUST avoid rationality. Most sane people think in terms of PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE, but narcissists seem to think that the world exists only for them to pillage.
When someone gives us a gift, in order for us to accept it graciously, we have to relinguish a part of our self-sufficiency to do that, the narcissist cannot allow that to happen to them, therefore they must belittle, ridicule, criticize and find fault in the gift OR the giver.
In the movie "Sybil", the woman (childhood education assistant) had about 16 personalities but she was not an evil, abusive person. I don't think narcissists have a double personality because the GOOD lifestyle/personality is meant only to cover up the other (they only have one NATURE but will EXHIBIT/display two personalities).
The reason I think of evil as an "animal" is because IT instinctively knows what it needs in order to continue/thrive. The narcissist is hardly ever (if at all) consciously aware that they must cause and maintain an atmosphere of chaos in order to continue causing evil.
In order for someone to argue unreasonably with another person, they must cause and maintain confusion/uncertainty of communication, make untrue assertions, cause chaos, prevent order and destabilize the issue/situation (in other words,...chaos).
Peace and harmony (peaceful coexistence) are logical, evil is illogical. Evil continues to happen because it's perpetrators don't own up to it, they simply blame it on the devil (redemptive figurehead).
- My personal take on it #68716
17 y
3,909
This is a reply to # 852,388Though I abhor the idea of this, it's the only "rational" explanation for people who perpetrate harm against others, barring definitive mental illness: in my opinion, there are just some people out there who were born without souls, perhaps.
- My personal take on it #68716
17 y
3,909
- How sad #2984
17 y
4,438
This is a reply to # 852,233He did tell me that his father was abusive and miserable and he could never please him. And how much he abused his mother. He can see this, and yet try to do the same thing to me? That's what I will never understand. I would think being abused would make you more sensitive to others. His public persona is actually very sensitive, but his real personality is actually the opposite. It's almost like being sensitive gives him more ideas about how to hurt someone.
So very sad, what wasted lives. The good thing is I think he will never have kids. He always used that against me, if I wanted children, I had to marry him within a year or else he would never want one. Nothing like an ultimatum to make you want to leave.
- The "science" of evil. been there done that
17 y
4,220
- Therapy #68716
17 y
4,159
- It's still hard for me to believe #2984
17 y
4,229
- Being "whole" #68716
17 y
4,201
- You are right #2984
17 y
3,995
- Re: Matthew Winkler....Narcissist? #68716
17 y
4,196
- Re: Matthew Winkler....Narcissist? #2984
17 y
4,350
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