I think antibiotics are THE cause of the candida epidemic. My theory is that antibiotics wipe out certain good bacterial species that inhabit the surface of the intestinal mucous membrane. When these good bacteria are killed off, the ever present candida invades the mucous membranes. Once this happens the war is lost. Candida has won and the best the body can do is limit the damage.
People not taking antibiotics can still develop Candida problems though. The problem lies in immune dysfunction. The immune system though is a multitude of things INCLUDING the intestinal flora, which form bacteriocides, peroxide, and acids including lactic and acetic acid.
Yawn, so what else if new? Okay, probiotics help by increasing lactic acid in the intestines and limiting candida growth. This is good. But they will not eradicate candida.
Correct, but the acids formed keep the Candida growth gene turned off and also keep Candida in a relatively harmless yeast form rather than the aggressive and pathogenic fungal form.
What's more, they won't even colonize the intestines, let alone displace candida from the mucous membrances. Contrary to advertising, all priobiotic bacteria are transient. So as soon as you stop taking probiotics you will get another candida outbreak.
This I really have to disagree with. A few strains have been shown to be transient. But there are literally thousands of beneficial strains that inhabit the gut. And these bacteria do a lot more than just control Candida and pathogenic bacteria. They also produce B vitamins and immune factors. They also the produce about 80% of the body's serotonin. In order for us to stay healthy these bacteria have to take up residence in the intestines.
In addition how could prebiotics work for the body if these bacteria were not residing in the gut? Prebiotics do not contain these bacteria. Instead they feed the flora that are residing in the gut. Since most people are not breast feeding on colostrum or eating dirt they are not getting regular infusions of these bacteria. So if these bacteria were not residing in the gut then we would be quickly depleted of these bacteria and we would have all sorts of health issues from the lack of beneficial compounds produced by these bacteria.
Yeah, still nothing really new here. Okay. Babies get their good surface inhabiting bowel bacteria from their mothers, both in the womb and through colostrum.
They do not get the flora in the womb. Instead the flora are first picked up during birthing as vaginal fluids containing these bacteria enter their mouth and then are swallowed. This is why C-section babies are not as healthy. The first bacteria they are exposed to are not the benefical flora, but rather hospital pathogens. They also pick up beneficial bacteria from the colostrum, but also from the mother's nipple skin.
What if their mother's good bacteria has already been killed by antibiotics? The baby is then born into the world with no effective defence against candida. Further, if the baby is unlucky and gets infected with candida in the womb, due to systemic candidiasis of the mother, the baby may also be born autistic.
You are never going to kill off all of the benefical bacteria with antibiotics. There will always be survivors, which is again why prebiotics can be used to get the numbers back up. And the baby will still get more flora from the nipple skin if the mother is breast feeding.
What I'm getting at here is that with each generation of humans, the special mucous membrane lining bacteria that defend against candida are gradually becoming extinct. This means that future generations will not need to take antibiotics for systemic candida infection to occur. There is also the probability that candida is becoming increasingly virulent and resistant.
What's the solution? Firstly we need to isolate the right bacteria that actually protect the intestines from candida, even if we have to locate them in isolated tribes that have never taken antiobics. We then need to develop a way of getting them into the intestines so that will colonize the linings. I think this is the strategy being looked into by Paul Jaep and Gary Smith in UK. I wish them luck, because I think we are rapidly losing this war against our immune systems, while the arrogant medical fraternity smugly sits back in denial.
>"This I really have to disagree with. A few strains have been shown to be transient. But there are literally thousands of beneficial strains that inhabit the gut."
You seem to be confusing resident bacteria with orally ingested probiotics.
Not really since they are the same strains of bacteria.
Of course resident bacteria inhabit the gut, and these respond to prebiotics. But oral probiotics are not resident bacteria, and they are transient.
Actually most strains are.
Do you have any evidence that shows otherwise?
Providing evidence goes both ways. Technically you are the one making the claim that they are not resident so you should be providing the evidence to your claim. Since I already have some evidence though here it is:
http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/308
Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium lactis and Lactobacillus F19 prevent antibiotic-associated ecological disturbances ofBacteroides fragilis in the intestine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18524406?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSyst...
"Interaction of probiotic Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium strains with human intestinal epithelial cells: adhesion properties, competition against enteropathogens and modulation of IL-8 production."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17265871?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Adhesive and chemokine stimulatory properties of potentially probiotic Lactobacillus strains.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252493?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Assessment of adhesion properties of novel probiotic strains to human intestinal mucus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10536300?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
The effect of probiotic bacteria on the adhesion of pathogens to human intestinal mucus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17377402?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSys...
Effects of probiotics on enteric flora and feeding tolerance in preterm infants.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19365593?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Probiotic properties of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Lactobacillus paracasei isolated from human faeces.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543808?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Screening of probiotic activities of forty-seven strains of Lactobacillus spp. by in vitro techniques and evaluation of the colonization ability of five selected strains in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372165?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSyst...
Identification of surface proteins involved in the adhesion of a probiotic Bacillus cereus strain to mucin and fibronectin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066809?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Characterization of Bacillus probiotics available for human use.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179885?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSys...
A randomized placebo-controlled comparison of 2 prebiotic/probiotic combinations in preterm infants: impact on weight gain, intestinal microbiota, and fecal short-chain fatty acids.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17377402?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSys...
Effects of probiotics on enteric flora and feeding tolerance in preterm infants.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19365593?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Probiotic properties of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Lactobacillus paracasei isolated from human faeces.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543808?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Screening of probiotic activities of forty-seven strains of Lactobacillus spp. by in vitro techniques and evaluation of the colonization ability of five selected strains in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372165?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSyst...
Identification of surface proteins involved in the adhesion of a probiotic Bacillus cereus strain to mucin and fibronectin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066809?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Characterization of Bacillus probiotics available for human use.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179885?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSys...
A randomized placebo-controlled comparison of 2 prebiotic/probiotic combinations in preterm infants: impact on weight gain, intestinal microbiota, and fecal short-chain fatty acids.
>You are never going to kill off all of the benefical bacteria with antibiotics. There will always be survivors, which is again why prebiotics can be used to get the numbers back up.
You seem to have missed the key point of my argument. It is not that ALL bacteria are killed off by antibiotics. It is that certain strains of bacteria that provide the most protection to the body from candida infection are totally killed off. Once a STRAIN of bacteria is totally killed off, no amount of prebiotics will bring them back to life. And if the mother doesn't have the protective strains, how is the baby going to get them? Not from colostrum or nipple sucking, and certainly not from prebiotics.
You are not going to kill off any one strain of flora completely. These bacteria can survive and adapt just like any pathogenic bacteria. In fact some of the intestinal flora have already demonstrated a resistance to antibiotics:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=241779
Drug resistance plasmids in Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus reuteri.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18279182?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...
Characterization of oral lactobacilli as potential probiotics for oral health.
"Four Lactobacillus plantarum and two Lactobacillus oris strains expressed resistance to tetracycline and/or doxycycline. "
If you think about it, the first bacteria in the gut to be killed off by antibiotics are likely to be the most beneficial ones,
Not true as I have already shown.
the ones that are residing in direct contact with the mucous membranes (and physically protecting the lining from candida), because these will have more contact with the antibiotic than free bowel bacteria. So after a round of antibiotics, any prebiotics you ingest are feeding comparatively less beneficial bacteria.
See above because again this is untrue. In fact one of the studies I provided showed that the use of probiotics DURING antibiotic therapy prevented any drops in the numbers of intestinal flora during antibiotic therapy. And the numbers of intestinal flora quickly rebounded after cessation of antibiotic therapy, with or without probiotics.
BTW, I'm not knocking prebiotics per se, just your logic.
The thing is that even without all the research readily available contrary to your hypothesis, logic and common sense would still tell us that probiotics and prebiotics work to restore the flora. Again, why would the original flora that inhabits our intestines colonize, but the same exact bacteria in probiotic supplements cannot colonize when taken orally? That makes absolutely no sense. Furthermore, if there was no way to rebuild the flora if they have been supposedly killed off completely then how come we don't all have chronic or systemic Cadidiasis from the antibiotics that we have had throughout our lives? Again common sense tells us that the flora ARE NOT completely killed off and they do rebound either through probiotics or even the dietary prebiotics we ingest.
I don't mind arguing with people as long as they are logical and fair minded and I believe they have a honest motivation to get to the truth of a matter.
However, Hveragerthi, you seem to be a very contentious person motivated by winning an argument, with little or no interest in learning anything new or finding truth. I have debated with you once before and you showed this attitude, and you are showing it again. I see no point in continuing to argue with you on this matter, or probably any matter in the future.
YOU asked for evidence to dispute YOUR claim that YOU refused to post any evidence to. So don't whine to me because you were given what you requested and because it proves your hypothesis wrong.
Your latest tactic seems to be to bombard me with links to supposed evidence.
"Supposed evidence"? What do you consider real evidence? Claims from a sales site somewhere? The reason I posted so many links showing PROOF was because I did not want to waste a lot of time looking up more proof when you tried to nitpick apart all the studies. By posting more links I figured it would show you the truth being that it has been proven by so many studies that most of the flora do in fact take up residence. Foolish me to think that you would accept scientific evidence as real evidence. So let's forget all the scientific evidence and go back to common sense and logic again. So why do you believe that the original flora that took up residence from oral ingestion will not do the same thing later in life. Not to mention the fact that bacteria MULTIPLY. So yes, their numbers can come back up after antibiotic therapy has ceased. Again, you are never going to kill off all of any one strain of benefical bacteria, especially since many of them have shown antibiotic resistance.
Curiously, for effect, you have listed most of your links twice, as if this makes them twice as valid.
You assume a lot. I had made a copy of the links to see if they were duplicated. I went over them quickly and did not see the duplications so I pasted them back to the post. So any duplications were not intentional. And it does not change the fact that they proved what I said.
However, as was the case with the previous topic we debated, none of your links actually provide real evidence to back up your point of view.
LOL!!! You obviously did not actually read the studies. Hint: Reading the link addresses does not actually tell you what the studies found. If you would have actually read the studies they discuss things like colonization and adherance to intestinal cells.
In not one of your links was it shown that probiotics survived in the human intestine 14 days or more AFTER the probiotics were stopped.
One of the studies I looked at, and I think I di post, showed the numbers of intestinal flora had increased. That is pretty hard to do if they are not surviving. Furthermore these gains were also seen in test subjects that were not receiving probiotics. Again, the bacteria ARE NOT completely destroyed by the antibiotics and they multiply just like any other bacteria. This is why the numbers came back up despite not receiving probiotics.
Now I am sure you will come back with more arguments and links or whatever, because you simply must have the last word. I hope that makes you happy.
Of course I am going to respond when you are going to falsely claim that the links showed no evidence when they clearly did. If you still want the last word though I would love to see some studies that refute the studies I posted and that prove your hypothesis.