Re: On “Protein or "Funny Protein"(NPN)--Killing "US"”

The insistent use of the term contamination while technically accurate, minimizes and conceals the very real fact that this is a deliberate criminal act. Word smithing that I feel is inappropriate under the circumstances... I agree to disagree with you on this one.

C - "The toxic effects are not due to nitrogen overload, though the research is still not clear on the mechanisms, the simplistic view of nitrogen overload is wrong. "

You state that the mechanism is not clear and then state I am wrong (it would be more accurately stated in ALL your posts that you THINK someone is wrong and then better for you when found wanting in challenge)... perhaps I am not.

It may not be simply the nitrogen, however, without the nitrogen, would the effects be realized? You simply do not know as evidenced by your above statement...

Further research has led me to much documentation where melamine and cyanuric acid can both together, or separately cause these crystals to form in the kidneys. The earliest reference to this I have found is 1958 in sheep.

Could it be the NPN alone causing this, OR the nitrogen along with what ever common substances are found in both... perhaps the structure of the NPN within either? Perhaps what is already in the human body along with the NPN and nitrogen.

Here is one such...

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/comment/reply/9676/23609

1966 STUDY: SHEEP DIED FROM KIDNEY FAILURE FROM EATING MELAMINE

May 9, 2007
MELAMINE WAS KNOWN TO BE LETHAL IN 1966

SHEEP FED MELAMINE DIED! Don't believe the FDA that melamine had to combined with cyanuric acid to cause the deaths of pets. Melamine alone can do it and cause the same crystals in the kidneys found in ill and sick pets. The cyanuric acide is just another industrial waste China dumped in the wheat flour to boost the "protein" (actually nitrogen) levels artificially.

http://www.maxxam.ca/content_man/admin/document/Cyanuric_Acid_in_Pet_Foods_an...

"researchers have proposed that cyanuric acid can precipitate out of solution as a fine spoke-like crystal under conditions similar to that found in animal kidneys."

http://64.151.124.209:9020/knowledgebase/wiki_search.jsp?search=melamine

Ingestion of melamine may lead to reproduction/reproductive damage, or bladder or kidney stones, which can lead to bladder cancer.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1154.html
International Chemical Safety Card

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/melamine.html
MSDS

http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_250440.html
OSHA – Chemical sampling information

http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol73/volume73.pdf
WHO – Some Chemicals that Cause Tumors of the Kidney or Urinary Bladder in Rodents and Some Other Substances{{cite journal author = HD Heck and RW Tyl title =The induction of bladder stones by terephthalic acid, dimethyl terephthalate, and melamine (2,4,6-triamino-s-triazine) and its relevance to risk assessment. journal = Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. volume =5 issue =3 pages =294-313 date = September 1985 id = PMID 3903881}} A study in 1953 reported that dogs fed 3% melamine for a year had the following changes in their urine: (1) reduced specific gravity, (2) increased output, (3) melamine crystalluria, and (4) protein and occult blood.T.W. Tusing, "Chronic Feeding - Dogs", cited by "Summary of toxicity data - trichloromelamine" by California Environmental Protection Agency, last revised on 04-02-2002,

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/toxsums/pdfs/1023.pdf
URL accessed

C - "Just because these compounds have nitrogen, the conclusion that it is the nitrogen that is the problem is unfounded"

I think you are wrong and again misleading and misdirecting. The nitrogen is a large component of the chemical structure of NPN containing substances without which the crystalline precipitate would most likely not occur.

I suggest you read about the role of nitrogen in the crystallization of various substances.

C - "There are also a variety of methods that will only test for proteins and nothing else; my choice being biosensor testing. This would render the practice of spiking useless since they contaminants would not show up as protein and thus it could not be sold at higher prices nor could it be used to meet protein quotas. It would make spiking a money losing proposition."

There are still huge holes in these methods that unscrupulous manufactures can exploit and I think you are aware of that. In addition, the food could remain spiked with no detection. Then there is a huge cost benefit ratio to consider with testing... can all food lots be tested accurately for anything/everything and get to market before spoilage? Opportunity for exploitation by manufacturers once again. I think we need to be realistic here.

C - "I would call it spiking the samples, sometimes it is called dosing. In the mining industry it is called salting (a la Bre-X), ultimately I call it contamination."

I like the spiking or dosing better as it is more accurate in defining the deliberate act.

C - "Is it usually the other way around. Kidney failure results in elevated BUN levels and other tell-tale signs."

Why is that? Could it be that the kidneys have lost their ability to handle the nitrogenous waste? I think the Science is not understanding what is actually occurring here.

C - "I think you may have misread me. I was dismissing the simplistic NPN explanation which ML uses to suggest that melamine is dangerous because it is registers as NPN. I used the example of chlorophyll to illustrate how such simplistic view could include perfectly benign or essential compounds can also fall under the NPN category, things like chlorophyll, creatine, nucleotides and other naturally organic compounds. Can you begin to understand why this notion of “NPN is bad” is wrong, misleading and potentially dangerous?"

We are dealing with very different forms here; in other words there is a very real difference between the nitrogen in chlorophyll and the nitrogen in melamine. It is most likely much more dangerous in not understanding this NPN issue as it relates to diet. That said, an NPN ingestion from a food source is less likely to cause issue than one from a man made waste product.

I agree in part that it is about melamine and cyanuric acid, however it is also about NPN and brings the issue to the public forum/forefront at long last.