I appriciate your debate and realize that both of you are on one side. You sitll think it is possible to use scripture to understand the truths in it by your own wisdom. You are trying to prove it but alas, most of you are useing scriptures and understanding it quite differently. The Jews during the time of Jesus also knew the scripture and the law but did not understand it from the perspective of the spiritual world. Now it would be rediculous for God to give the law and not use it as a measure to bring judgement. It should be realized that God displayed a part of Himself in glory in various times. When He hung on the cross He displayed his utmost love for a rebellious people, when He created the world, He showed his power as a creator, when He set out the plan of salvation, He showed his awesome will to bring the best out of the worst, and suerly when it is time for judgement the world will also see it without much debate. It is difficult to make the truths of the Bible a reality unless a person first surrenders their will-- power of choice, to accept Christs righteousness. With out surrendering our will to Him there will be no understanding of the eternal truths of the Bible which a natural mind cannot understand.