Running scared! lol! That's delusional. I haven't seen you convert one person on these forums
ROTFLMAO!!! This from a person who cannot find the evidence that liver flushing is bogus even when put right under your nose. Hint, you cannot find what you refuse to look for.
and the Liver Flush Support Forum is still Curezone's most successful forum.
LOL!!! Now that is a good example of delusional. As others have pointed out the liver flush forum has slowed down to a crawl. People are catching on that the flushes are bogus and potentially dangerous. The only hold outs are the liver flush cult members who rely on misinformation and misdirection to support their views since fact and common sense elude them.
Why does it matter what the "stones" are made of?
It goes to the heart of whether or not "liver flushing" is real.
Does anyone have proof that Liver Flushes are dangerous?
Lodging a real gallstone in the bile ducts is a well known danger. The resulting pancreatitis is another well known danger.
PS I'm not part of the so-called "cult", having never done a Liver Flush myself.
A person does not have to perform sacrifices to be part of a Devil cult. All they have to do is believe in the false ideas and defend them.
That's a bit over the top, Hv. Devil cult?? LOL!!
I did not call them Devil worshipers. It was an analogy of how cult members follow made up and unproven ideas. Would it have made any difference if I compared them to the People's Temple?
Are you 100% sure that everything you promote is totally harmless?
Nothing is 100% harmless. You can even get too much water or even oxygen. But if someone told you that drinking cyanide would cure your cold would you do it? There are things that simply do not work and pose the risk of great dangers. Liver flushing is an example.
Are you the one person in the world who knows it all about health?
Never said I was so I don't know why you would bring up such an assumption. But I do know enough about how the body really works and about chemistry to know those big fatty blobs people are passing are not real gallstones. And that lodging a real gallstone in the bile ducts can lead to pancreatitis and will require emergency surgery.
I agree with you on some things and understand your anger about apparently harmful things like MMS and ascorbic acid and colloidal silver being promoted on Curezone. At least, I think they're harmful but I'm not sure whether you do.
I don't like MMS or other similar products. Ascorbic acid can be a big problem when people megadose on it, which I have posted on a number of times. And I have never been a big fan of colloidal silver. I don't consider true colloidal silver to be inherently dangerous. But I think it is over hyped, over priced, and many of the so-called "colloidal silvers" out there are not true colloids. Especially if made by the three nine volt battery devices.
Hulda Clark was right about some things but not everything, or she would have lived longer.
Right about what?!!! The closest thing she got right was the herbs she recommended cold fight cancer. But this had NOTHING to do with killing parasites. As far as I am concerned Hulda Clark did so much to push the acceptance of alternative medicine back due to her wacky concepts.
I'm surprised to see you taking aim at Liver Flushes . The jury is still out on this issue, for me.
The evidence is overwhelming that they are bogus. Even the lab tests on these so-called "stones" have proven that they are not real gallstones, but rather consist primarily of saponified olive oil. And the descriptions for these so-called "stones" are often nothing like real gallstones. But the funniest claims are the ones where they claim to pass these massive "stones" even though it is physically impossible to do even if they took a whole truck load of magnesium to relax the bile ducts. Those muscles are like a rubber band. They can only stretch so far before breaking. And they physically CANNOT stretch large enough to allow the passage of real gallstones that large no matter how much wishful thinking the LFs apply.
Can you provide proof that liver flushes are dangerous?
Been done numerous times. Real stones lodging in the bile ducts from the strong contractions by the gallbladder can lead to pancreatitis resulting in the need for emergency surgery. In addition if the person does not have a gallbladder then consumption of large amounts of oil will result in severe diarrhea as caustic bile dumps in to the intestines burning the intestinal wall. This not only increases the risk of intestinal cancer, but also increases the risk of electrolyte imbalances from the chronic diarrhea.
Ok, my turn to ask a question. Can you provide proof that the liver flushing really works to expel large gallstones?
I still think you're way over-the-top, comparing liver flush promoters to members of a cult.
You are entitled to your opinion just like I am.
Many people try new and unproven remedies. Someone had to try them the first time in order to figure out whether they work.
And if they don't why keep using them when there are proven remedies that do exist?
Basically all of natural healing is based on experimenting on ourselves, in my opinion. I don't decide what to try by reading scientific studies, I decide by using common sense and intuition and by reading and studying different points of view, when I'm able to find sources that I trust.
But common sense as well as science tells us that the claims being made for these flushes are bogus. For example can you show me any evidence that people can pass real gallstones the size of a quarter or larger through the bile ducts? I have seen so many claims like this, but common sense should tell them that you cannot pass a stone larger than the maximum diameter of the bile ducts through the bile ducts. It is physically impossible!!!
And it's a rare thing these days to find sources that can be trusted. The internet is full of liars and hustlers.
Yes, I agree. And they rely on misleading or outright false information to promote their hustles. The same that goes on with the disproven claims of the liver flush supporters.
I think you get upset when you see gullible people being taken advantage of. It seems to me that you're trying to slay the "dragon of all false and harmful health info" on Curezone. The problem is, forum owners such as yourself and others have strong beliefs that conflict with each other. You'll get much further in convincing reasonable people like myself if you will explain without insulting.
Again I do not attack unless attacked first. Problem is that the people who decide to start the attacks do so because this s often all they understand. It is like the abused child that grows up only understanding abuse. So in essence it is required sometimes to "speak" to them on their level.
You're suggesting that people who do Liver Flushes are mindless zombies who will try anything (such as cyanide) that's suggested to them.
Not quite what I said, but I know where you going with this. But how am I wrong here? The overwhelming evidence that the claims are bogus has been presented over and over. Yet these people not only continue on without blinking an eye, they do everything they can including attacking, being misleading and even outright lying to defend the disproven. So again, how was I wrong?
That type of superior attitude causes me to lose some of my respect for you, and I do respect you.
As I pointed out in the past I am here to help people, not win a popularity contest. Tough love may not make me popular, but it sure beats doing nothing and having someone get hurt from the procedure because they were not made aware of the facts including the dangers. This would be like watching a child playing with gasoline and matches and not taking any action because you want to be known as the "cool parent". What should be a priority? Safety or popularity?
There are many weird things that I don't agree with, like coffee enemas and urine therapy, however I wouldn't call people who use them members of a devil cult.
Again, this is not what I said. Don't twist what was really said to make a point.
I don't consider your statement that liver flushes have been proven to be unsafe to be any kind of proof at all. That's the problem. You may have seen these things happen with your own eyes, but I haven't. We all know how records can be changed and mistakes covered up, especially in hospitals.
I don't need to drop a big anvil on my foot to know it is going to hurt and break some bones. There are some things that are already well known so I have no need to proven them to myself. The same applies to having real gallstones lodged in the bile ducts. This has happened to people who ended up having surgery. So the risk of pancreatitis from a lodged gallstone is a reality, not someone's made up fantasy. In fact I am pretty sure I posted an example of this from one of the medical journals recently. But since you brought up common sense earlier is it common sense that strong contractions of the gallbladder from the consumption of a large amount of oil increases the risk of a real gallstone lodging in the bile ducts? A real simple question that I would really like to have an answer for.
It does make sense to me that doing a Liver Flush if you don't have a gall bladder could be very harmful.
Why not? Do you know what causes the chronic diarrhea after gallbladder removal. Again simple common sense can answer this question.
As for Hulda Clark , I agree with her viewpoint on dental work being harmful and a source of many poisons in the body. Also, I agree with her belief that parasites are a far greater problem than many people realize.
I have not seen her dental claims, but the parasite issue is way OVERBLOWN!!!!!
As far as proving that liver flushes expel large gallstones, I have no opinion on this. I haven't studied it and I've never done a liver/GB flush. I don't pretend to be an expert and have no proof to offer, on either side of the issue. Scienceis based on theory and hypothesis and these change constantly. We make our own observations of life, we share them and argue about them, but how can anyone prove that they're right?
Simple, those big blobs people are passing DO NOT have the same characteristics as REAL gallstones, lab analysis has proven these are not gallstones and they have been proven to be primarily fecal soaps, which are well known and common. How much more evidence is required for proof? People accept things all the time as factual with less proof than that.
We can say whatever we want and others will choose whether to believe us or not.
That's fine, but the anti "liver flush" people should have the right to present evidence so people can make rational decisions. If they go forth with it and get hurt from the procedure then it is on them. If I know there is danger and fail to say anything then it is equally on me. Again just like if I were not to say anything if I saw a child playing with matches and gasoline. If I fail to take action and that child gets hurt then I am equally to blame.
Eliminating forum owners selling products would easily solve the problem of these none productive and foolish threads.
Selling of products has nothing to do with it. You have liver flush supporters here like Uny who sells products. Then there are people like me who have proven the flushes are bogus, but don't sell products that are in competition with these bogus flushes. I do recommend products that health food stores sell and that I have no financial interest in that will actually cleanse the liver and gallbladder unlike the so-called "liver flushes".
Bottom line is that these are DEBATE forums. If people don't want to see all the evidence that the so-called "liver flushes" are bogus then they don't have to come here. Stick to the support forum instead of trying to censor anyone you disagree with.
Wombat, I agree with what you're saying about providing "proof". No one can give proof. It's supposed to be all about sharing what has worked for us and what hasn't.
That is what the Liver Flush Support Forum is for. This is a DEBATE BOARD. How many times does that fact have to be repeated before the liver flush supporters figure that out?
Arguing on a debate forum is to be expected, but to demand "proof" is silly. No one, on either side, can prove anything.
That is not true at all. Send me one of those so-called half inch stones and I will give more than enough proof that it is not a real gallstone. It is actually very simple to do. The soap stones people are passing have different characteristics than real gallstones.
That is what the Liver Flush Support Forum is for. This is a DEBATE BOARD. How many times does that fact have to be repeated before the liver flush supporters figure that out?
Since when did you make any distinctions between proper decorum on support versus debate forums? Such distinctions have not stopped you from prolonged debates and personal attacks in the past.
You obviously did not get the message (or else ignored the message) when you were making all your negative and disruptive posts against liver flushes and flushees in the Liver Flush Support forum until you were ultimately banned from it.
As I recall, the moderator of this forum had to make you clean up your act in this forum in order to not be banned here as well. And now you want to cry foul when people don't conform to your concept of what a debate forum should be? Or pull out the old "victim card" and claim TOS violations when they question your actions?
That is what the Liver Flush Support Forum is for. This is a DEBATE BOARD. How many times does that fact have to be repeated before the liver flush supporters figure that out?
Since when did you make any distinctions between proper decorum on support versus debate forums? Such distinctions have not stopped you from prolonged debates and personal attacks in the past.
You really need to get your facts straight before posting such garbage. First of all I NEVER attack anyone unless attacked first. So all you are doing is blaming the victim instead of the real perpetrators. Secondly if the debate was prolonged then others were involved. I am not engaging in prolonged debates with myself. So to single me out when the LF supporters keep coming back to continue the debates jsut goes to show your intense prejudice against me but not anyone who shares your views. In fact, your post is part of keeping this prolonged debate going!!! So if you have a complaint give it to the person staring back at you in the mirror!!!
You obviously did not get the message (or else ignored the message) when you were making all your negative and disruptive posts against liver flushes and flushees in the Liver Flush Support forum until you were ultimately banned from it.
Again you do not have all your facts straight. I questioned some claims asking for some evidence. That is not debate within itself. If the doctor goes to give you a drug is it debate if you ask the doctor what it is for, if it will really work or if it is really needed? Asking questions does not necessarily constitute debate. But the moderator saw it as a questioning of their authority. Kind of like when a parent asks a child to do something and the child asks "why?". People in positions of power generally do not like feeling as if their authority or beliefs are being questioned. Unfortunately there are way too many immature people here on CZ that have not figured out that asking questions is not a challenge or debate. So they are quick on the draw to ban people rather than addressing the questions to set an example to anyone else who may dare to question the claims.
As I recall, the moderator of this forum had to make you clean up your act in this forum in order to not be banned here as well.
I don't recall that at all. Do you have proof f this? And if this is true then how many of the LF supporters got the same warning for their actions?
And now you want to cry foul when people don't conform to your concept of what a debate forum should be? Or pull out the old "victim card" and claim TOS violations when they question your actions?
See the above comments. By the way the moderator needs to send you a warning for posting off topic and for making an individual the target of your post, which are TOS violations. See, two can play at your game.
This is NOT a mainstream medical site. Nobody here owes anyone any "proof" of efficacy. Testimonials are valuable and meaningful and nobody has to go get tests or whatever to prove a danged thing.
First of all you are making this about a person, not the topic, which is a violation of TOS.
As for your claim about not owing proof, this is not quite true. Again, these are DEBATE BOARDS. Debate involves taking a stance and BACKING IT WITH PROOF!!!!!
If people don't want to be asked for evidence they they should stick to the Liver Flush Support Forum where they can post any delusional thing they want to post without being challenged. If they don't want to be challenged then they should stay off the debate boards. This board IS NOT the Liver Flush Debate Only if you Support the Bogus Flushes Forum.