HI all,
I know there is a strong debate out there about whether or not those green stones floating in the toilet are indeed liver or gallbladder stones. I found out early on I had Gallstones and tried Chinese herbs to dissolve them but they didn't go away..then I found the LIVER FLUSH! and now they are completely gone! MY STORY IS HERE (its a RRR) :) --> www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp
ANYWAYS MY ARGUMENT FOR liver flushes...I did the first 11 and got hundreds and I mean hundreds each time. My last two (12 and 13) I got no stones..yet I still drank the same olive oil and lemon/grapefruit mixture that hulda clark/moritz recommend. So if it really is the case that somehow the olive oil combines in the intestines and changes "MAGICALLY??" into stones then this is yet another proof that THEY REALLY ARE STONES THAT COME OUT VIA THE LIVER and now that my liv/GB is clean I don't get anymore!
Yay for natural healing!
COmments?? I love to hear both sides :)
ANYWAYS MY ARGUMENT FOR liver flushes...I did the first 11 and got hundreds and I mean hundreds each time.
There is the first solid piece of evidence that these are not gallstones. The gallbladder is not large enough to hold the number of real stones that you claimed to have passed in such a short time. And it takes a lot of time for real stones to form. So there is no way possible to have passed that many real stones.
Secondly the reason you are not passing the pseudo-stones is simple. You have depleted the cholesterol in the bile from the frequent flushes. That cholesterol is an important component to the formation of these pseudo-stones.
So your own testimonial has proven that what you passed were not real gallstones.
How long does it take to 'replete' my cholesterol then?
There is no set answer since everyone is different. Women for example will end up with more cholesterol in their bile than men since estrogen stimulates the release of cholesterol in to the bile. And their progesterone can help retain it since it is a smooth muscle relaxant so it prevents proper bile expulsion.
How is that possible that i depleted the bile?
Yes, as the sterols in the oil and diet bind to the cholesterol it will prevents its resorption as the bile itself gets reabsorbed.
I make a quart and a half per day no?
Again this depends on the person. There are various factors that affect bile synthesis as well as cholesterol synthesis and deposition in to the bile.
THe cholesterol should be built up after 2 months of not flushing no?
Probably, but again there are so many factors involved including your daily consumption of dietary sterols.
Thats how long I waited to do my 12th after my 11th showed no stones.
This is very interesting because I wondered and thought that that was probably too many stones from my liver and gallbladder to hold but IDK
Correct, the gallbladder is actually rather small. It cannot physically hold thousands of stones.
Opinions are not proof. Do any of the supporters have any proof that what are being passed are real gallstones? I keep asking and have not received any proof yet.
Alternative medicines are not widely accepted by the medical field for a simple reason. Unsubstantiated claims. When people make claims and don't back them with evidence then attack anyone providing evidence to the contrary this just hurts the whole alternative movement. Therefore the unsubstantiated claims do more damage to the movement of alternative medicine than even Stephen Barret from Quackwatch can do. In part because they give people like Barrett the ammunition to attack alternative medicine. And as quackery gets exposed and still promoted it just gives the rest of the medical establishment a great mistrust of alternative medicine. But the testimonials of people claiming that they passed quarter sized stones (which is physically impossible), and passed stones that float (real stones sink) and that are soft and squishy (real stones are hard faceted) just further make alternative medicine look even less credible. Especially when the people who actually sent in these so-called "stones" in to a real lab to have them analyzed found out that they were not gallstones. But again people here ignore the evidence and keep promoting what has already been proven untrue hurting everyone else who are trying to get proven alternatives accepted.
Well how about when people do coffee enemas and or just take someEpsom Salts ...AND THEY GET STONES! What then?
Being that coffee enemas, nor Epsom salts cause gallbladder contractions to begin with they would have NO effect on getting real gallstones out of the gallbladder.
I don't know of an explanation there except that they ARE stones in the gb
What about the sterols in the coffee forming a cholesterol-sterol complex just as olive oil sterols do?
The best evidence that flushes do not work is in the main page for this forum. In the upper left corner is a photo. When you click on that photo it pulls up another photo of some supposed gallstones. Notice they say that the largest "stone" is 3.2cm, which is 3,200mm. Even if you took a truck load of Epsom salts the maximum the bile ducts can expand is around 2-4mm. So why don't you explain the impossible to all of us. How would someone pass a real gallstone that is 3,200mm in size through a 4mm hole maximum?
this 4mm duct is not made of rigid stainless steel. it is made of smoothe muscle tissue.
as has been pointed out on numerous other threads, when you add in magnesium to the equation which is known to relax smoothe muscle tissue,
And I mentioned this. But what I pointed out was that even with a massive dose of magnesium you still cannot dilate the bile ducts far enough to allow passage of real gallstones the size people are claiming to have passed. As an analogy the vagina will relax during birthing to allow the baby to pass. But if the woman has a 50 pound baby the vagina is not gong to expand enough to allow the passage of that baby even with the strong uterine contractions. So I don't care how much magnesium you take, the bile ducts are not going to expand enough to allow the passage of a real gallstone larger the duct opening even with the gallbladder contractions. Even the skull of the infant is flexible to help it pass through the narrow opening. But real gallstones are hard and calcified. So they are not going to pass through the ducts unless smaller than the opening. And the ducts can only expand so much without rupturing, just like a water balloon can only stretch so far. So you are not going to pass a 25mm+ stone through a bile duct that cannot expand anywhere near that diameter. Here is an example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2442185/
Gallstone-Induced Perforation of the Common Bile Duct in Pregnancy
The gallbladder was intact but a 2 mm perforation was found on the anterior surface of a dilated common bile duct (12 mm). On table cholangiography suggested obstruction of the distal common bile duct caused by a 5 mm gallstone impacted within the distal common bile duct.
and then add in a very strong stimulant to contract the stones out (abnormally large quantity of oil) the evidence is clear that stones do come out of people.
See above. Those very large blobs are not real gallstones.
look through the pictures section.
I have, and they look nothing like real gallstones. Try studying real gallstones and you will see why they look nothing like the real thing.
the golf ball sized stones exist, but are very much in the minority. only a very few people have reported such sizes.
It does not matter if the reports for blobs that size are rare or not. The fact that they are even reporting the impossible is just more proof that these blobs are not coming from the gallbladder. Since they are too large to come from the gallbladder then where are they coming from? That's right, they are being formed in the intestines!!!
your main counter-argument is that it is dangerous to flush because stones can get stuck in the common bile duct. but if the flushes are a hoax as you say, then there would be no danger at all of this happening.
First of all I said there is a risk IF real gallstones are present. Secondly, if they lodge in the bile ducts from the contraction of the gallbladder this means they did not pass. And finally the problem is when a REAL gallstone larger than the bile duct gets lodged in the bile ducts. These are still rather small gallstones. So this disproves your claim since even if very small stones can lodge in the bile ducts despite the dilation by the magnesium then there is NO WAY a large real gallstone is going to pass through the ducts no matter how much magnesium you take.
in other words how can it be dangerous to play with purple unicorns if the unicorns don't exist in the first place?
So using the same logic the liver flushes must not be dangerous since they are not passing real gallstones.
if a person has stones, using bitters will be just as dangerous as any other means in lodging stones in the common bile duct. in actuality bitters will be more dangerous because they are weaker than doing flushes, and in the absence of completely dissolving a stone, the maximum force available would be preferable in pushing the stone into the top of the ileum where we have larger diameter.
Bitters dissolve real stones, they do not cause severe contractions of the gallbladder.
do a series of 3 or 4 flushes and then come back and report, like everyone else who has actually done the flushes.
Report what? That they don't work?!!!! The evidence is already clear to many of us that the flushes are bogus and we do not have to fail to pass real gallstones to know this. Just like I don't have to smash my foot with a sledge hammer to know that it is going to hurt. Again some things are very obvious even without proving to yourself. Chemistry and simple anatomy and physiology have proven that these flushes are bogus.
Hv, 3.2cm is 32mm, not 3200.
Thanks Spud, yep I am not know for my math skills.
I understand where both sides are coming from. However, Hv, I do have to side with Liver Flushes work side. Here's why.
I think its almost a moot point to really argue if its possible that Gallstones are able to get out through the ducts for a couple reasons.
1. Reason 1: Look at the surveys people ARE getting SO much healthier and cure anything from Lupus
Lupus has NOTHING to do with the gallbladder. Lupus is a viral induced autoimmune condition. Autoimmunity results from adrenal dysfunction. So again these are totally unrelated.
to eczema.
Eczema also has NOTHING to do with the gallbladder.
That's what I like to call EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE..
No, that is called nothing. I could claim that 100% of these people were breathing air, so it must have been the air that cured them. That would be more evidence than hearsay.
It has nothing to do with theorys or 'hypothesis' or petri dishes or anything like that..it has to deal with what is happening in REAL LIFE..REAL PEOPLE who are breathing and sharing their success stories.
Which again is not evidence. It DOES NOT take in to account other things the person may have done such as changed their diet, or reduced stress. And it does not take in to account placebo effect. So that is not in any shape or form evidence. Evidence would be explaining how taking some olive oil and citric acid killed the virus that triggered the lupus or built up the adrenals to prevent the formation of low affinity antibodies. After all that is what it would take to cure lupus. So explain how the olive oil did any of this with a rational explanation if you want to convince me that the flushes really work.
SO you THEN have to ask is the 'risk' of this protocol worth the results people are getting? Well once again looking at the survey results..less than 2% of people regret taking the Liver Flush and those could be even less if they had done proper prep like colon and parasite cleansings and even a kidney cleanse to ensure that the big cluster of toxins you just released gets eliminated by the body efficiently and quickly (there chief complaint is nausea.)
2. SO IS THE LIVER FLUSH SAFE? ...and that answer you have to admit is YES! 1 in a 1000 people have reported a 'stuck' stone. I would call that a pretty F'ing good healing protocol. And that person just flushed again the next day and the stone passed.
No, that just goes to PROVE that most of these people DID NOT have REAL gallstones to begin with. It is a very simple concept. You cannot lodge a real gallstone in the bile ducts if you do not have real gallstones to begin with. Even Spud pointed out the other day that she had her gallbladder tested BEFORE doing a flush. There were NO gallstones present, but when she did the "liver flush" she got those squishy little stones. Now that is solid evidence that the flushes are bogus.
Moral of the story when looking at ANY healing protocol.
1. Is it safe? ..Check.
Yes, as long as you don't have any real gallstones, which apparently is the norm for most people doing the flushes.
2. Do the benefits > risks ...that is not debatable either
Passing saponified olive oil and sterol-cholesterol stones formed in the intestines is a benefit? And this does not outweigh the risk of emergency surgery if you lodge a real stone in the bile ducts or rupture a duct like the case I posted?
3. Its been used by many SUCCESSFUL HEALERS such as Hulda Clark ,Dr. Schulze , Andreas Moritz ...
Again a matter of opinion.
Let's start with Hulda Clark. She had absolutely NO IDEA what she was talking about. For example she claimed parasites caused all cases of cancer, which is totally bogus. In fact parasitical cancers are EXTREMELY rare. The vast majority are viral in origin, which again has been scientifically proven unlike Clark's claims. Then she claims if this same parasite gets in the pancreas it causes diabetes and in the thymus causes AIDS. ALL of these claims are total garbage, and I have addressed them before:
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1472436#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1467756#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1448234#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1481411#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1612867#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1569089
On Dr. Schulze:
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1675044
On Moritz:
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1620100#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1567784#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1568425#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1457157#i
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1644737
christian:
i am laughing my arse off right now.
i knew hveragerthi would have a little kniption over your last post, and sure enough he came through. he thought he was going to blind you with science, but it didnt happen.
rock on
Why don't you try posting some proof to the contrary. For example let's see some proof of your claim that cleansing toxins will cure lupus. Specifically what toxins are you referring to and exaclty how are they causing lupus?
oh this is awesome!!!!
autoimmune diseases have nothing to do with the gall bladder?
oh really?
so re-establising bile flow after years of being clogged won't help every system in the body detoxify?
i think i'm just going to completely disregard everything you say from now on, because you have just showed some real ignorance here.
You actually think that detoxifying is going to cure autoimmunity? How? And where is your evidence? Do you know what causes autoimmunity?
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as has been stated about a thousand times on various forums here, the ultrasound and xray testing are not accurate when non-calcified stones are present. these tests will only pick up stones of sufficient density. there are calcium stones and there are also bile pigment stones which may not show up on tests. this is not a hard concept to grasp unless you are deliberately trying not to grasp it.
Ultrasounds readily pick up the stones, and in fact can detect the stones as small as 2mm. It is x-rays and CT scans that do not always pick up gallstones.