I just finished answering this where you posted it below:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1552151#i
So does the stool analysis of ZERO candida albicans mean anything one way or the other?
I am not sure how they are getting a zero reading. And different labs can have different standards so I would have to see how they are testing and what their standards for findings are. All I can think of is that they are saying zero fungal Candida, which is Candida's pathogenic form.
What would constitute a diagnosis of candida overgrowth then?
Candida overgrows in an alkaline environment, which does two things. First the alkaline environment turns on the Candida growth gene. The second thing it does is to convert the Candida from benign yeast form in to an aggressive and pathogenic fungal form. Therefore the overgrowth would be excess fungal Candida. It is in this form that the Candida creates finger-like projections called hyphae that allow the Candida to dig in to tissues and cause its damage.
At what point would it be called systemic?
Systemic means throughout the organism. In other words the Candida has spread beyond the areas it is naturally found in such as the gut. If the Candida goes fungal for example the hyphae can allow the Candida to damage the intestinal wall and allow the Candida to go in to the bloodstream. This would be considered systemic.
I mean there's tons of information and websites out there that talk about candida overgrowth and how to 'fix' it. Is this just hype like the acid/alkaline thing?
Candida can overgrow, but it rarely goes systemic. From what I have seen I think the term is being used very loosely. And to make matters worse many of these websites are attributing symptoms that have nothing to do with Candida to Candida. People are reading these websites and misdiagnosing themselves with Candida, and especially systemic Candida, all because they read symptoms they have that may or may not have any relation to Candida.
>>In other words the Candida has spread beyond the areas it is naturally found in such as the gut.
Example(s) of where it is not naturally found?
The bloodstream and the stomach to name a few.
My understanding from what I have read has always been that it exists on every living thing, as a yeast (non-mycelial).
I don't know about every living thing. For that matter Candida is a living thing. As far as humans go Candida is normally found in the same areas of the body where our beneficial flora grow to keep the Candida in check. The intestines, the vaginal cavity, the skin, etc. It is the flora that generate the acids that keep the Candida in its yeast form instead of the pathogenic fungal form.
With respect to all those who have self-diagnosed an infection - is it your belief that it is unlikely an overgrowth situation or unlikely a systemic one?
There is a big difference between overgrowth and systemic infection. This is like the difference between an infection in the finger and sepsis.
Candida overgrowth can occur for a number of reasons including antibiotic use, including some natural antibiotics, which is relatively common. But overgrowth does not automatically make it systemic. I think this is where the confusion comes from. These Candida sites are using a lot of these terms loosely and the average person has no clue what the difference is between Candida, Candidiasis and systemic Candida.
So to clear this up everyone has Candida, which is the yeast/fungus. Sometimes it will overgrow when the areas it is normally found in becomes too alkaline. This is known as Candidiasis. When the Candida becomes fungal it develops hyphae that can cause tissue damage and allow the fungal Candida to spread to the bloodstream, which is systemic Candida. But Candida RARELY goes systemic, and just because Candida overgrows this does not automatically mean it will go systemic. Hopefully that will clear up some of the confusion.
How uncommon do you consider localized infections, eg. intestinal Candida?
Again we have to clarify the difference between the presence of a microbe and infection. As I pointed out everyone has Candida, it is naturally occurring in the body. But this does not make it an infection. If the Candida overgrows (Candidiasis) or goes systemic then it can be classified as an infection.
That being said yes Candida infections are relatively common, especially due to the overuse of antibiotics. But systemic Candida is not common at all.
And if you feel even localized infections are indeed uncommon, why do you appear to maintain such interest in discussing the acid/alkaline confusion surrounding its cause - and remedy?
The idea behind forming this forum was to expose the myths in medicine, both conventional and alternative. Regardless of how common or rare Candida infections are there is still a lot of misinformation being floated around about Candida. One of the myths surrounding Candida is that Candida thrives in an acidic environment. The fact is that Candida is controlled by acids and thrives in an alkaline environment. I have posted proof of this enough times on these forums that I am not going back in to that right now. But I am sure you have seen the people trying to argue against this fact, especially on the Candida forum. One of the women arguing against me said she has been battling Candida for 15 years. So she believes that the key to controlling Candida is to fight it with antifungals and to alkalinize the terrain. Yet in 15 years she has been unsuccessful. I would think that at some point within that 15 years that she would realize that what she is doing is not working and that her alkaline hypothesis is wrong. Regardless it is her choice if she wants to keep going down the wrong path and wants to continue fighting the Candida the rest of her life. But she has no right to make this decision for everyone else who comes here to find a method of healing. So I am merely posting facts about Candidiasis and other conditions and it is up to people to follow my advice if they wish or to research and verify the facts I post first. Equally they have the right to follow the unsubstantiated information being disseminated on CZ if they wish. It is their choice, but they should not only be presented with one side, especially when there is no real evidence to substantiate that one side.
This brings up another one of my big pet peeves with CZ. There are too many people on the PUBLIC forums that seem to think that they have the right to control who posts and what information can be posted. i have been been told that I have no right to post on many of these forums because the facts I post contradict what the forum moderators or the self appointed monarchies on the forums believe is the truth. I have also been told I have no right to post on many forums because they are support forums and I am not sick with anything. I have two points to make there. First of all lets say you have cancer. Would you only allow your doctor and family members to support you ONLY if they all had cancer as well? Of course not. Support comes in many forms including beneficial information. So a person DOES NOT have to be sick in order to support those who are. Secondly, if I don't know what I am talking about why have I not had any "chronic" conditions since I was 5 years old when I outgrew my allergies? Apparently I know enough about how the body really works and how to keep it healthy that I am not having to deal with Candidiasis or any other conditions. So who would you rather take advice from? Someone who has managed to stay healthy nearly all of his life or someone who has been battling health issues for the last 15 years with things that obviously do not work?
Now, what I want to tell you -and everybody else: thinking about my problem, I remember I was getting an acid reflux after mealtime, for a weeks before I was "down" with my painful sking allergy. It was the first time in my life that I got this, and did not know why or what to do. At first, I took antiacids to no avail. I could not sleep and had to get up in the morning to go to work.
A friend at work told me to drink sodium bicarbonate after eating at night. I did what she told me and found relief. The sodium bicarbonate brought my stomach acid down. But I had to do it every night. I did not change my eating habits.
Baking soda, antacids, acid blockers and alkaline waters can all aggravate acid reflux. i discuss acid reflux here:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1489655#i
Then, one morning I found myself in terrible pain and my entire body covered by hives. I had pain in my knees -suddenly so painful_. I also got plantar fasciitis in my left foot. All of these symtoms I developed at once.
Reducing stomach acid can lead to a whole host of problems. Undigested proteins can lead to allergic reactions. Lack of acid can also lead to nutritional deficiencies including silica that lead to tissue degradation, damage and inflammation.
I started to read your forum a week ago. I still need to learn how to treat my symptoms. Should the adrenals get my attention first? Should I give my first attention to the liver instead?
Why not focus on both at the same time. Bitters for the digestion and foods high in C and B vitamins for both the adrenals and the liver. You could use jiaogulan (gynostemma) tea as both a bitter and for its strong adrenal support.
I now have vaginal itching -not so bad, but again, a new symptom- I am not taking sodium bicarbonate any more. But all my misery developed because of it, I know. Was it Candidiasis or systemic Candida?
If it is a Candida overgrowth in the vaginal area then this would be candidiasis. Reestablishing the flora, and thus the pH will help.
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1452732#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1545270#i
I feel I owe you. And I thank you.
Just glad to hear you are learning and recovering. It helps me to know that I am not wasting my time here.
I'm very familiar w the Tahoma Clinic/Dr. Wright - an esteemed "iodine doc", actually. It sounds like he used either Dr's. Data or Genova. My experience and opinion is these labs too commonly produce inaccurate and often false negative results. Did you actually see a copy of the results and read ZERO for C. albicans? It's simply absurd.
I agree. But not only is the zero Candida albicans absurd, but also the zero Lactobacillus.
The only 'comments' written were about the lack of Lactobacillus.
So I SHOULD have both of these in the stool sample?
Yes, actually multiple strains.
What symptoms suggest to you Candida overgrowth? Did they or have you considered b hominis, d fragilis, etc.?
I have never heard of this b hominis, de fragilis!! Is that English???
As to the symptoms, it's the usual laundry list on every site. I always score real high on those candida tests!
Actually I'll think I'll just keep on with my supplements for adrenals and thyroid, clean up my diet, continue with my milk kefir, water kefir and kombucha and see what happens. I wish I could say I've had dramatic changes for the good since starting this, but if there are changes I haven't noticed any. I figure it took a LONG TIME for me to mess myself up this bad and it'll take a long time to fix it.
Marci
P.S. I'm going to scan that lab test result and post it here tomorrow!
As to the symptoms, it's the usual laundry list on every site. I always score real high on those candida tests!
Actually I'll think I'll just keep on with my supplements for adrenals and thyroid, clean up my diet, continue with my milk kefir, water kefir and kombucha and see what happens. I wish I could say I've had dramatic changes for the good since starting this, but if there are changes I haven't noticed any. I figure it took a LONG TIME for me to mess myself up this bad and it'll take a long time to fix it. Or your problem is not Candida and you are not treating the real source of the symptoms.
Are you saying now it's probably not adrenals and thyroid? Stomach acid? Hormones?
Because I am taking supplements and doing things trying to correct these very issues.
Actually I don't know. All I am saying is that symptoms can have various causes and it sometimes takes experimentation as well as looking at symptoms as a whole to have a better understanding of what is happening. Since I don't have a list of what your symptoms are and what you have and have not responded to it is hard to tell you very much.
Let's say someone says what to do for pain. I cannot tell them much of anything based on that. What kind of pain? Are we talking an infection, an injury, a heart attack...........? Let's say they respond a headache. OK, what kind of headache? Migraine, tension, cluster, sinus.......? Is this intermittent or chronic? Does anything help it or make it worse? As things are narrowed down the best choices for treatment become more clear.
I guess I'm having a hard time trying to understand what the difference is between 'candidiasis' and 'candida'
Candida is the microbe, whether it be in a yeast or a fungal form. Candidiasis is the condition where the Candida overgrows.
and is candida considered a 'good thing' when it's under control and a 'bad thing' when it overgrown and grown into areas it has no place being?
Exactly.
Is candidansis the same as fungal infection or is a fungal infection the final step in candidiasis?
Candidiasis is the overgrowth of Candida, which almost always overgrows in its fungal form.
Is guess the terms are confusing to me. Not that it's that important, but if I go by the stool analysis I have ZERO candida albicans and they are supposed to be present in the colon aren't they?
Yes, which is why I think they are really saying zero fungal Candida albicans instead of zero Candida albicans in any form.
Yet all the 'symptoms' tests I've done online show I probably have candida overgrowth.
This is why I hate these sites saying if you have these symptoms that you have Candida overgrowth. Most of the symptoms of Candida can also be symptoms of other things. And many of the symptoms they list as being symptoms of Candida have nothing to do with Candida. I think this is one of the main reason people are so confused about Candida.
So I don't know what to do at this point about it. Maybe just put it on the backburner and continue with my focus on my adrenals and thyroid. Then again, I am taking the supplements for adrenals, hormones and thyroid BASED ON SYMPTOMS so addressing what *might* be candida overgrowth because of symptoms seems to me to be just a valid.
With all the kefir you are consuming Candida is likely not an issue. Just remember to also feed the flora with fibers.
Yet in 15 years she has been unsuccessful. I would think that at some point within that 15 years that she would realize that what she is doing is not working and that her alkaline hypothesis is wrong
This appears to be a clear case of candida infecting the brain. I understand you can catch it from barefoot contact with carpets.
HV, I have experienced candia overgrowth in the lung and sinuses, as well as the gut. In your opinion, do those locations constitute "systemic"? Thanks.
Candida is normally found in the gut, but not in the lungs and sinuses. Candida in the lungs though is extremely rare and is normally only seen in people with severe immune suppression. Still this would not really be considered systemic, it would be considered localized infections.