I'm not the one replacing Jerusalem with saints - II

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Well, that didn't work out so well, so trying it again here.

Transferred to this new thread from:

http://www.curezone.info/forums/fm.asp?i=2352646#i

........hopefully to avoid the 'decreasing width problem' that still seems to operate in this site format. I'll soon see if this is any better.

refreshed said in that thread that:

I'm not the one replacing Jerusalem with saints, when it's nations coming against Jerusalem.

Really? Is that your serious contention now? That the camp of the saints and 'the beloved city' are not one & the same? Even after vektek provided you with ample evidence to the contrary? Boy, you really are a literalist, ain't ya?

But you're quite right - you're not the one who 'replaces' Jerusalem with saints. The NT does that for you:

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Galatians 4:21-31

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 12:22-24

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb..............

......And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 21:9-14, 22-27

You know your interpretation is in serious trouble when even your favourite hunting ground (Revelation) tells you the true (spiritual) meaning of Jerusalem. And before you interject that there are two Jerusalems (as indeed there are according to Gal. 4), I say - irrelevant. Since Messiah's arrival, God is only interested in the heavenly, eternal, spiritual Jerusalem, for:

Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 4:20-24

And:

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Acts 17:24-25

So a restored earthly Jerusalem and Temple, etc., is a complete irrelevancy since the change of covenants. Even if that third temple that we have been promised for the last 50-odd years were to be built right now, at best it would be of no consequence or interest to God, at worst an effrontery to Him. Since the institution of the New Covenant, He has no further use for such 'shadows' or 'the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world' (see Gal 4:8-11). He now deals with us only through 'the substance, which belongs to Christ' (Col. 2:17). In light of plain NT teaching, your enthusiasm for the restoration of Jerusalem, the temple, the Jewish cultus, etc., is seriously misguided, and a direct consequence of your failure to properly evaluate the change of Covenants that took place at Calvary, for:

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:13

All of which begs the obvious question of why you still insist on clinging to what has been superceded, grown old and vanished away? Why does it still have such a hold on you? No, God is only interested in one 'beloved city' - and it isn't made of bricks and mortar. It is the heavenly representation of the saved of all ages, for:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God....

.....These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16

The real irony is that more than 4,000 years later, you have the benefit of NT light shining on the promises of the OT, yet Abraham had a better understanding and appreciation of the true meaning of those promises than you do today. That you and I disagree about these matters is not the issue. The real tragedy here is that you have cut yourself off from a treasure trove of revealed truth that you have yet to taste.

The rest will hafta wait another time chuck.

All of my messges on this board All of my messges anywhere

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