Re: Aircraft carrier model to prophetically represent(edit)

Lets see if I can't help you out here. First lets stop all the sheep in a pen, and all the other crap you post in these purposely passive/aggressive derogatory ways. It is almost like if I may borrow from your name sake

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.
Sun Tzu

But lets answer these questions. Lets start with biblical church model.



Acts is a historical book. It was not written by any of the writers to address any specific doctrinal issues. But to chronicle the "Acts of the Apostles" . That is all. It is purely historical. If we want to look for the historical structure we can start in Acts though

And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

(Acts 14:23 ESV)

So lets start with church, The New Testament Greek word that is translated "church" in our English Bibles is the word "ekklesia" and refers a local assembly or congregation of people meeting together in a particular geographical location, for a specific purpose.

In the New Testament "ekklesia" referred to the assemblies which met in a city.

Acts 11:22..."The church which is in Jerusalem"

1 Thess. 1:1..."the church of the Thessalonians"

Plural use of the word "ekklesia" also referred to multiple churches in an area.

1 Cor. 16:19..."The churches of Asia salute you"
Gal 1:2..."unto the churches of Galatia"

Gal 1:22...."unto the churches of Judaea"

So now that we have some bible for Church out of the way lets look at leadership. Yes leadership.

The make up of the New Testament churches was: Saints, bishops, appointed servants which English Bibles call "deacons."

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons" (Philippians 1:1)

BISHOP is the Greek word "Episkopos." Means an overseer as Acts 20:28 shows. The Episcopal Church (for example) gets its name from the word.

Phil. 1:1, 1 Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:7, 1 Peter 2:25 all use this title.

Ephesians 4:11. Gives the New Testament lists of servants in the churches. The last position stated as given by the Lord to the churches is "pastors and teachers." Note the other names state God gave "some" then the name. It does not say, "some" pastors and some teachers. Most believe the reason is it is the same position of "pastor-teacher."

Pastor: word means "poimen" which refers to a shepherd who takes care of sheep or flocks, It means more than one who feeds them, but who protects, looks out for, and will give his life for them. Pastor is to guide as well as feed the flock.

The pastor is to care for and feed the sheep. God's sheep are then to follow him as he follows the Lord. The concept is that as shepherd he is to guide the congregation.

Jesus tells Peter numerous times in John 21 that if he loves him he will feed and tend his sheep. (Yup shepherd sheep model again)

The video you posted makes a mockery of this, which does not reflect the bibles biblical model

Remember, Christ gave a parable of a shepherd and sheep.



1 Peter 5:3, The pastor is not to Lord over the congregation, but set an example. (1 Cor. 4:16, 11:1) Verse 2, He is to "feed the flock" means to shepherd or pastor.


So we have established leadership, and title. I think this covers most church structures


Now for this modern "Cough Cough" apostleship that you claim is somehow a church model because of the historic account of the 12 actual apostles in acts.



Most scholars agree there are at least 3 and possibly as many as 5 groupings of apostles in the NT. First is Jesus who stands alone as the apostle in Heb.3:1-6 sent by God to be the Savior of the world. All other apostles derive their position under him. We find an apostle is 'one sent from'. There is a technical use and a general use in this term.

I think this therein lies your confusion MST

Scripturally we find that the apostles were all personally chosen by the Lord Jesus. Mt.10:1-4 and in Lk.6:12-16 names the 12 apostles, one of which was chosen for perdition. The 70 as well as the twelve were also trained and sent out. The position of the apostles were not permanently fixed number until after the resurrection (Matt. 19:28-30; Lk. 22:28-34; Jn. 21:15-18). The number 12 then becomes an eternally established number.

Matthew and Mark use the term “apostle” only once for the Twelve who were sent on a missionary journey (Matt. 10:2; Mk. 6:30). Luke uses the title the most frequently and almost exclusively calls the Twelve “apostles” (Lk. 6:13; 9:10; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:26; 2:43; 4:35,37; 5:2,12,18; 8:1. )

One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord be witnesses of his resurrection. When the closed group of twelve became eleven, they sought another to take Judas' office:

Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time the Lord Jesus went in and among us beginning from the baptism of John to that day he was taken up from us One of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.' “

The men went on to cast lots, and the lot fell on Matthias which closed the group of 12 permanently. We later see God choosing Paul in Acts 9. Also see 1 Corinthians 9: 1.) We find that the apostles were given authority to perform special miracles . In Revelation 12:12 there are 12 gates and the name of the 12 tribes in Rev.21:14, there is reference to twelve foundations with the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb which are written on them in Heaven. Jesus referred to this in Mt.19:28, that in the millennium those who have followed him (the apostles) will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. These twelve seem to relate to Israel specifically, while Paul does not.

Paul's own words in defense of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor. 9:1: “Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our lord? Essentially there were two different groups those who were with Jesus when he was alive and then were witnesses of his resurrection and Paul as one who was witness to his resurrection only not having him be of the 12.(I need to mention that there are some who hold the position that apostleship was temporary and as Judas was replaced so could be any of the others. This does not seem to be a tenable position since there is no mention of this occurring in Scripture.)


Other requirements were a part of this first qualification of being with Jesus from the time of John and a witness to the resurrection. An apostle must have been taught divine truth by Jesus personally (Galatians1:1,12; 1Corinthians15:3). Only 10 were commissioned together as Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit to signify their unity and authority to forgive sins as they proclaimed the Gospel (John 20:19-23). Thomas was not among them and neither was Matthias. The exception is Paul who was taught personally by Christ while he was in Arabia for 3 years. When he emerged he had the same teaching as the 12. (Jn.14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor.9:1:1 Tim.2:7) So an apostle will agree with the already commissioned apostles in Scripture.

They were commissioned to communicate the very words of the Lord (1 Thess.2:13;1 Jn.4:6) They could speak words of judgment and the miraculous and have it immediately executed (Jn.20:23; Acts 5:3-11; 13:10, 1 Cor.5:3-5; 1 Tim.1:20). The Apostles exercised a position of authority as a community of elders over the church which was to be obeyed as if it was the Lord himself. (1 Cor.5:3-5; 2 Cor.10:6,8,11; 2 Thess.3:7-12,14). All these were in the nature of the office of an apostle.

Paul sometimes uses the term “apostle” in a broader sense for a messenger like a legate (2 Cor. 8:23; they are called apostles of the church),” a non technical term with a general meaning. There is a difference supported in scripture to be an apostle of the Lord, personally chosen and sent by him; and an apostle of the church, sent out by the body of believers. This broader usage made it possible to include others who would be considered false apostles, messengers (2 Cor.11:14; Rev 2:2). Paul also uses the word for a group of witnesses who had seen the risen Lord before him and had received a specific call to an apostleship. This group was larger than the Twelve.

The greatest men who influenced the church throughout history (for good or bad) never claimed they were apostles or prophets. They never taught that these 2 offices continued. Athanasius, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, or even people I do or do not agree with such as Edwards, Finney, Charles Hodge , A.H Strong or Gill and all others were satisfied to build upon the foundation already laid by the original apostles.We find the only apostles mentioned in Church history after the bible was completed were false ones. It is arrogance today to think that anyone elevates themselves to this position

The gift and office of apostleship was the first and most important gift given after Christ ascended, but it was a temporary gift and office that does not continue to our present time. For the simple reason people do not see Jesus Christ in His bodily resurrection. For this to be so he would have to leave the right hand of God and make a special appearance. We know from scripture the next time he comes is for everyone at the rapture, there are no secret comings. The apostles had completed their mission of laying the foundation of the Church and the doctrine was inscripturated. God's Word is complete no new revelation is needed. While the Lord does speak to us today he does not give any new revelation or doctrine since it has been delivered and completed




Now on to the so called sensationalist videos. I do not feel that they are so. They are demonstrating that NAR leaders such as Wagner; Ché Ahn, John Arnott, Bill Johnson, and Rick Joyner, men who are supposed to have supernatural discernment. Commision a man who goes on to abandon his sheep, commit adultery, abandon his family, and marry another woman in his cough cough ministry. Apparently their discernment sucked, the 12 apostles NEVER made this mistake! The apostles never kicked someone in the face, or smashed their legs like baseball bats to heal someone. These videos are important because it demonstrates they are not what they claim they are.

For my final point (as I am way past my bedtime here), you claim to denounce certain practices. Then endorse, or promote individuals that practice these things, or that support the people that do. It is kind of like saying. I am not a cannibal but these guys sure have a lot good recipes.

Think about that

Goodnight

Soli Deo Gloria



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