This is a good article if you have h... 
fectoid2
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I think it's a good summary.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-21/health/ct-met-adrenal-fatigue-2...
Frankly I'm not hung up on its existence, I just haven't seen anything definitive to say it doesn't exist.- Re: This is a good article if you ha... natway
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This is a reply to # 2,171,830Advertisement
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"The adrenals aren't failing, as in Addison's. They aren't destroyed as in an autoimmune issue. They simply can't keep up with the demands placed on them," said James Wilson, an Arizona-based naturopath and chiropractor who coined the term in 1998 and has written what some call the definitive guide for patients.
Sound like he's even saying adrenals don't fatigue. I hope we can all then agree that supplements intended to "rebuild" the adrenal glands are a waste of money.- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,171,888Definition of fatigue
"Fatigue (also called exhaustion, tiredness, languidness, languor, lassitude, and listlessness) is a subjective feeling of tiredness which is distinct from weakness, and has a gradual onset. Unlike weakness, fatigue can be alleviated by periods of rest. Fatigue can have physical or mental causes. Physical fatigue is the transient inability of a muscle to maintain optimal physical performance, and is made more severe by intense physical exercise.[1][2][3] Mental fatigue is a transient decrease in maximal cognitive performance resulting from prolonged periods of cognitive activity. It can manifest as somnolence, lethargy, or directed attention fatigue.[4]"
When a marathon runner becomes extremely tired, they cannot keep up with the demands on their body, (fatigued) however they can in a life or death situation, pull through. So they are fatigued, but not chronically exhausted to the point of not working (Exhausted i.e Addisons)
Come on Natway, you are making this WAY to easy now. Why not bow down and accept, you might sleep better at night if you do. You just keep coming back with nothing! Your arguments get weaker and weaker by the day lad, your running out of puff..its good to see though, you are making progress.
Fatigue - not being able to keep up with the demands.
Adrenals not being able to keep up with the demands
Adrenal Fatigue
Boom.
The big question, why do you bother? REALLY?
How is your insomnia today btw I notice you are up quite late in Cali, must be bad? Try a better diet, laying off the Sugar and you'll get some shut eye.
GOOD ADVICE.
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... fectoid2
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This is a reply to # 2,171,888Now I see the problem. Your interpretation of the term Adrenal Fatigue means that the Adrenal Glands are fatigued when actually the more popular intent of the phrase is to mean "fatigue resulting from stress on the Adrenal Glands". The person feels the fatigue.
By the way, if a person becomes fatigued, it doesn't mean they're not functioning anymore, i.e. that they are dead. So either way you spin it, Wilson didn't contradict himself.
""There's no question that fatigue is at least partly due to the interactions between the brain and the adrenal glands," he said. But it's a "gross oversimplification" of the origins of fatigue, he said, to imply that the adrenals are a major cause." Dr. Daniel Clauw, director of the Chronic Pain and Research Center at the University of Michigan. (from the article). Again referring to the fatigue experienced by the individual.
"Shortly after the ceiling of her new business collapsed, Wilayto, 33, suffered from chronic sinus infections and troubling fatigue. Her skin broke out, she ached and she couldn't sleep despite feeling exhausted. When conventional doctors couldn't help, she turned to a holistic physician, who ran blood tests and told her she was anemic and vitamin-deficient, and that her adrenals were working overtime to regulate her body."
Notice it's always about the fatigue of the individual not about the fatigue of the adrenal glands.
Again, even Dr. Weil, who you cited as denouncing the existence of Adrenal Fatigue, in the same breath said "Vitamin B2, also called riboflavin, is a water-soluble vitamin present in most animal and plant tissues. It is one of the essential B vitamins, known to help support adrenal function, help calm and maintain a healthy nervous system, and facilitate key metabolic processes, including helping to turn food into energy."So he does not agree with you that supplements for adrenal support are a waste of money. However, I don't necessarily have the same sentiment as Dr Weil, which you don't either.Advertisement
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Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,171,957Excellent post 'little friend' :)
But he won't listen, we have had years of this, and so many well educated and intelligent people have attempted to help him understand the concept, sometimes having to really put it in very basic laymans terms so he can comprehend, but nada, the sugared receptors just don't absorb the information.
But hey he might surprise us this time, and finally 'get' it! Come on Natway, you can do it!
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... fectoid2
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This is a reply to # 2,171,972You keep saying "he", but to me, the tone of the writing seems female. I can't really put a finger on it, but it just seems that way.
I guess it doesn't really matter, but for some reason it strikes me as wrong when you say "he" or "him", when referring to the person.
When I asked if he/she was diagnosed with anorexia, this is what I got "Where did you get that I was diagnosed with anorexia? I'm seriously questioning your reading and comprehension abilities." He/she actually questioned my reading and comprehension abilities, because he/she misread my post. I asked a simple question and he/she didn't even see the question mark. I received no apology whatsoever for the personal attack on my literacy. I can totally see how he/she was banned from Support Forums . Personal attacks are unacceptable on Support Forums . I'm not offended by it because it was clearly the defense mechanism of someone who is feeling backed into a corner, but there are a fair number of people on these forums who do not live in the US, and whose first language might not be English. We all have to be understanding of that.
Even on a debate forum, personal attacks should be wrong, but I can certainly see how some can get pulled into that game. I think that you're one of them.
For me, when he/she responded to one of my messages with "lol", which is supposed to mean "laugh out loud", that's downright rude. But hey, for all I know, it meant "lots of love"
I get the sense that there's no one left on this debate forum who even cares about the subject anymore. They've all been chased away. It's probably almost time for another intervention through banning, otherwise the forum is not of any use.Advertisement
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- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,171,983Thats quite believeable but his name is Nate and he lives in San Francisco. He used to hound an old flatmate of mine who was also from the Doug Graham school of 80/10/10, but a proper 80/10/10er, even she disowned him because , well, I wont repeat what she said :)
This forum was actually set up to 'house' Natway when he was removed from the Support forum at request of other users. It was quite interesting, if you look at his posts, he was quite literally 'pleading' with the mods to be allowed back on to the AF support forum because, and I quote, 'its the health issue I am dealing with', but when this didnt happen, he declared war on AF, so in a few days, went from having AF himself, to now saying it was a completely made up illness. I think its called Screaming Child Syndrome.
It didn't stop there. He then proceeded to search through many of the regular users threads, pulling words or phrases of things they said at some point over there journeys with AF (some over many years), and putting them out of context and into the context he wanted them to be in. But he wasnt very good at it. One mention of say, "I ate an apple today and I didn't crash" would be turned into 'look everyone carbs made me well today, carbs are the future, Natway was right!' So many of the regular users gave up posting because of Natway, because anything they said would be used against them.It was a shame.
Then the best bit, every newbie poster on the AF support forum receives an email from Natway within minutes of posting about eating Sugar and toxic hunger and how AF dosent exist, quite literally, EVERY SINGLE new poster receives one and then PAGES of drivel about how he is the mastermind of the world and figured it all out. Its actually such comical reading, I will post it all one day.
The interesting concept is, he is'nt very well at all. He eats two loaves of bread for lunch (I kid you not) and three plates of noodles for dinner and then cant sleep at night and is debating going on sleep meds, but of course, the insomnia isn't down to all the carbs, not at all.
People were actually supportive of Natway for a while on the support forum, but his lack of ability to reason with sanity , it just got peoples noses up, and thankfully he was kicked off.
This forum is useless, its just a place for Natway to vent his anger against an illness he never suffered from. I hope one day he is banned and it can become an educational place for good people to discuss and educate each other. But till that day, some of us still have fight left in us to not let him carry on disrespecting all those with Adrenal Fatigue, but also those with Anorexia, and those in Africa suffering from Starvation.
The biggest question in all of this is so simple
If Natway is as well as tries to make others believe, why does he spend time on here posting hate to an illness, rather than being out in life and living it to the full?
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... natway
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This is a reply to # 2,171,994How is Starbell these days?
#181311
Date: 5/6/2014 11:42:52 AM
"He used to hound an old flatmate of mine who was also from the Doug Graham school of 80/10/10, but a proper 80/10/10er"
Re: Bannanas by wiredgeneration
"and neither was my old flatmate Starbell."
//www.curezone.org/forums/s2.asp?f=762&c=0&ob=d&m=wiredgeneration
Starbell
Date: 2/27/2013 5:33:49 AM
"I'm doing 80/10/10 for over 6 years"
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2040239
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This is a reply to # 2,172,001No idea who starbell is, but is that all you've got ?
Aww did you just thread mine someone AGAIN. Its your 'thing' isn't it...do you think if you counted up all the time you spend doing that, what amazing things you could of achieved in life?
Getting nailed lad, its awesome. Keep writing, you're doing your own damage!
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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- Re: This is a good article if you ha... fectoid2
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This is a reply to # 2,171,994I know that it's not relevant to the discussion, but I actually assumed that natway was simply short for natural way.
Anyway, more than 20 yrs ago when I was told I had Candidiasis, I thought the doctor was nuts. But the reaction that I had with Nystatin treatment, followed by CDSA testing and we were able to nail this thing. Of course, these GI flora imbalances are difficult to correct and in 2002, which were the early days of curezone, I also discovered the clarke liver flush. During my extreme period of dysbiosis, I allowed my gall bladder was removed by a different physician, because I had discomfort in that area, and tested positive for crystals in my bile, even though I did not have gallstones. In hindsight, testing positive for bile crystals was essentially telling me I had "thick" or sluggish bile. So I followed the Liver Flush Forum for an when I felt I was educated enogh about it and the whole process made sense, I went for it. That took my healing to a level that I never had experienced in my life. To make a long story short, I quickly moved on to running my very first marathon at the age of 43 and qualified for the Boston Marathon. Not an easy feat for anyone, let alone a newbie first time marathon at 43 years old. I truly believe, that if you can cut through all of the noisy posts, you can learn a lot, and you can help a lot of people if your posting energy is focused.
Back to the Candidiasis, as I look back, my doctor was way ahead of his time. The Human Microbiome Project is going to lead to the next generation of treatments for diseases, particularly autoimmune diseases, of which diabetes is one. Think about it, 90% of the living cells in the human body are bacteria. Antibiotics (which are mold derivatives for the most part) have been effective soldiers against many life threatening infections, but have been overused. Although Antibiotics are good at killing bad bacteria, they also kill a lot of good bacteria as collateral damage, leaving openings for new strains to come in and take over and in some cases, Antibiotic resistant strains. This microbiome is necessary for digestion and many other functions, but the composition of the microbiome can run our lives. It's being discovered that the microbiome can determine if you'll be fat or thin, energetic or tired, hungry or full and even if you will have cancer. It is moving at an exponential rate right now because of DNA sequencing technology, so it's just a matter of time that so many illnesses that we discuss on these forums will be linked to our microbiota, inside and outside of our bodies. I came across a few companies online that are just now getting set up to provide gut microbiota sequencing to the general public. It's an exciting and hopeful time for everyone.
This guy is running a pretty cool experiment in Tanzania
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/in-search-of-the-perfect-gut-microbiome-with...- Re: This is a good article if you ha... natway
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This is a reply to # 2,172,394Advertisement
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It's a play on my name and "natural way".
If you would answer my question, what do you mean "stress on the Adrenal Glands"? Does that mean the adrenals top out at 80 mph, but the brain wants them to go 100 mph, and in trying to go faster, the adrenals start petering out and now can only go 40 mph? Or is it the adrenals are able to keep going it's top speed of 80 mph, but since the brain wants to go at 100 mph, it feels like the adrenals are only going 60 mph?- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,172,475bless you, you still don't get it do you?
Have you actually read any of the AF books? I really don't think you have, I understand there are some big words in them now and again, but give it a go, i'll help you out if you get stuck Tatway
And there aint nothing 'natural' about eating two loaves of bread for lunch lad!
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... fectoid2
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This is a reply to # 2,172,475It's neither.
If your page settings are set to slim or ultra-slim, you may not be seeing this message recently put into the banner by the Adrenal Debate Forum moderator:
"Challenge the message and not the messenger!
The first person to resort to name calling and personal attacks automatically loses the debate!
Personal attack is often the best indication that the writer knows his logic is flawed and therefore tries to deflect attention by attacking the opponent, instead of attacking the arguments of the opponent."- Re: This is a good article if you ha... natway
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,172,572If it's neither of my examples, then what did you mean by "stress on the Adrenal Glands"? You're not going to sway a lot of people into believing your argument if you leave everyone hanging.
And it's very ironic and hypocritical of you to bring up challenge the message when you fraternize with people like this who do nothing but stalk and attack me:
//www.curezone.org/forums/s2.asp?f=762&c=0&ob=d&m=%23181311
I didn't see you complain about that. Don't show your bias next time.Advertisement
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- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,172,612Nobody needs 'swaying' Tatway because we already know the truth of the matter, its actually you that needs the education, but you are making progress, so all is good. I dont seem to recall we have ANY real genuine Tatway supporting threads, if we look at the percentages, its probably 90% for AF 10% against, so really, in essence the evidence is opposite to what you try to make others believe. But We will get there with you.
Something to think about. When you attack those suffering from a real serious condition like Adrenal Fatigue, expect retaliation from those strong enough to do so, don't cry about it like a little girl. Don't attack, and you wont be attacked. Its very simple.
I realised, the reason you actually attack AF sufferers is because many of them are too poorly to fight back, or don't want to stress their already stressed system trying to educate the narrow minded un-educational. Big man.
Have a good sleep tonight y'hear! Try not to eat two loaves of bread for lunch!
You talk of diet a lot, why not post your daily diet plan? Go on, I dare ya. - Re: This is a good article if you ha... fectoid2
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This is a reply to # 2,172,612
There's nobody left to convince. According to the moderator, I won the debate. you resorted to personal attacks. "Personal attack is often the best indication that the writer knows his logic is flawed and therefore tries to deflect attention by attacking the opponent."
You just did it again. "Challenge the message and not the messenger". You can't help it.
Regarding what you call "fraternizing". I've been exchanging messages with you too. Who I choose to reply to in an open forum, doesn't make me guilty of that person's actions. I'm exchanging messages with you too. Why not copy and past some of your personal attacks on me into your message if you're now going to call me a hypocrite? Yes, you just called me a hypocrite. And you scolded me by saying "don't show me your bias next time". What the hell does that mean?
You called me illiterate for no reason except that you didn't hava a response to my points. I've been making points and getting none back. Why should I continue to waste my time with your interrogation? Give me your scientific proof that AF does not exist. Give me your proof that Candidiasis does not exist. Give me your proof that "most" people who have the symptoms of AF are in fact under-eating. It's fine to cite quotations and articles, but put your own logic behind the citations.
Furthermore, my debate along with your personal credibility attacks, aren't helping anyone because there's seemingly no audience here, and if there is an audience, they're only reading for amusement.
I've learned a lot from curezone and the open minded community here. I've been here on and off almost since its inception. I want to continue to learn and my time is too valuable to waste.
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- Re: This is a good article if you ha... #181311
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This is a reply to # 2,172,648
^^ Another Tatway gets ROYALLY told thread. Theres so many of them I've lost count! But i'll bookmark this one for future use, awesome wording.
Well said 'little friend'
- Re: This is a good article if you ha... natway
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,172,648---"According to the moderator, I won the debate. you resorted to personal attacks. "
LOL, well if that's the case, I've won just about every debate I had here on CZ, including when we first started debating where you were being very snarky and then accused me of being part of a scam. Remember?
You were also notoriously misquoting what I said, so much so I said I couldn't take you seriously anymore. That's when I first started questioning your reading and comprehensions skills because I couldn't believe how often you would misquote me.
Like this last time around, you made it sound like I was saying candidiasis and dysbiosis was pseudoscience when I was saying alternative medicine's theory of "adrenal fatigue" and "chronic candida" was pseudoscience, not the other forms of medically-proven candidiasis and I never suggested dysbiosis was fake, so not even sure why you suggested that.
Then you amended your original link that talked about "chronic candida" and "adrenal fatigue" to you arguing about candidiasis and adrenal function (insufficiency), which I've never questioned those medically-proven conditions, and then said I was playing semantics. Then you asked my if I was diagnosed with anorexia right after I asked the stalker you've been fraternizing with if he checked with his GP about his eating disorder as if you asked me that as a way of getting back at me for asking him that. If that's not the reason why you asked me that, then I apologize and take it back, but from our debates before and this latest time where you continue to misquote me, you can see why I sometimes question your reading and comprehension abilities.
But maybe there is nothing wrong with your reading and comprehension abilities. Maybe you are purposely misquoting me as a debate tactic. It's like when I started recommending people to eat more fruit and I was posting links to a website that just happened to be called "30bananasaday", some people who didn't like me or my message started accusing me of recommending people eat 50 to 70 bananas a day when I never even recommended how many bananas people should average a day. They just took something I posted and spun it to try to cast doubt on me and my message. I hope that's not what you've been doing.
---"Regarding what you call "fraternizing". I've been exchanging messages with you too."
You should look up the meaning of that word.
---"You called me illiterate for no reason except that you didn't hava a response to my points.
Give me your scientific proof that AF does not exist. Give me your proof that Candidiasis does not exist. Give me your proof that "most" people who have the symptoms of AF are in fact under-eating."
Well I partially explained above why I sometimes question your reading/comprehension abilities, but this is more proof why I do. I've posted many many threads in the AF debate section where I showed my scientific proof that AF does not exist. Did you just not see them?
You are also making it sound like I think no form of candidiasis exists, which is very dishonest of you when I've stated over and over again I don't dismiss all forms of candidiasis, just alternative medicine's theory of "chronic candida" which you helped convinced me that theorized condition was bunk from our Candida Debate a while ago. Thanks again for showing me the light on that one!
I've also posted two threads where I stated that from my personal observation and polling people that the biggest diet culprit with people in the AF section is under-eating and how all vegans here who got sick were under-eating at the time. I know you're going to dismiss that because it's not scientific proof, but are you telling me you didn't see those threads of mine either?
---"And you scolded me by saying "don't show me your bias next time". What the hell does that mean?"
I said "Don't show your bias next time." You even got that quote wrong. It means you show your bias when you criticize me, but you're seen being friendly with someone who's 1000x worse than what you accuse me of.
---"I want to continue to learn and my time is too valuable to waste."
I do too. What did you mean by "stress on the Adrenal Glands"?
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This is a reply to # 2,172,751Advertisement
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”This program is probably one of the best on the market, especially for the price.”
and once again Tatway makes himself look very silly.
You realise, the person you are arguing with is FAR more intelligent and far far more eloquent than you? the more you open your mouth and let the drivel come out, the more that person will tear you to shreds?
Reading over what you just wrote, (trying not to get bored about all this 'scientific proof' (wheres that Toxic Hunger scientific proof Tatters?), it would be all too easy to destroy you (once again) but I'm going to sit back on this one, because Fectoid has such a literate ability to wipe the floor with you and does it so gracefully....and the best bit you just keep coming back for more!
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This is a reply to # 2,172,753
One quick question Tatway - because its getting to the point where I think even the most insane would have to ask...
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