Revelations 
SECFORT24
16 y
4,842
With all do respect, many on here need to read their history books and then the bible. Revelations is about the fall of the Roman empire and the antichrist was Nero.- ALL about? been there done that
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I recognize the temple of 70 A.D. and that Jesus spoke to "this generation", but explain the angels, bowls, and trumpets. The 3 aspects of God as explained by the 6th day creation is the spirit of 666, and the earth did quake at the crucifixion, the sun did not give it's light, but when were the days one third shorter?
Revelation 8:12
"The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light was darkened; a third of the day was kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night".
Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken".
Even if understanding Revelation is allegorical comparison to past events, when were days ever shortened to 16 hours instead of 24? Are their any calendars that ever measured "days" as 16 hours?
- Re: ALL about? #27054
16 y
4,135
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,302,298Been There....perhaps they were referring to the "dawn to dusk" time?, just a thought.
- Re: ALL about? been there done that
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Hello Tomi,
I haven't been talkative for a while, maybe I'm catching my 'second wind'. It's good to talk to you.
In 70 A.D., the second temple was destroyed by the Romans (tragic times, great distress,...tribulation). Some prophecy can be seen as being fulfilled then, some can't.
The Jews tried to build a third temple in 363 A.D., but the time was not right.
http://bibleprobe.com/rebuildingthetemple.htm
Right now in Israel, some Jews want to build a temple, some don't.
Anyway, a "Preterist" will make the ridiculous claim that all of Revelation has happened already (I regard them as mere "sensationalists" that don't have a sincere bone in their body for The Lord). I think The Lord spoke of 2 prophecies at the same time (maybe some prophecies will be repeat occurences?).
History doesn't tell of multiple earthquakes and famines in 70 A.D. or celestial disturbances.
Mark 13:8
"there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs".
A few years ago (2004 or 2005), President Bush gave a speech at NASA that "the moon could contain resources that BOGGLE THE MIND". So, he told NASA to "explore" the moon. Last month, NASA launched two spacecraft to blow a hole in the moon (typical of Bush). The official explanation is that they are searching for water (scientific analysis of moon soil shows small amounts of gold).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,333172,00.html
Exploding bombs on the moon is not a new idea for the U.S. military. In 1958, the U.S. Air Force had a secret plan (recently declassified "Project A119") that was scrapped because getting a two ton bomb to the moon wasn't practical at that time. The next year (1959), the plan was to build a military base on the moon (I don't know what happened with that).
For the last 50 years, the U.S. gov't. has ben experimenting with HAARP and also exploding nuclear bombs in the upper atmosphere in order to condition the atmosphere (this is known as "military intelligence").
Solar flares seemed to be a threat to life on earth in the near future up until the beginning of this year when Solar Cycle 24 didn't appear on time. The last I heard was that earth entered a "maunder minimum" ("little ice age"). Studies show that earth's magnetic field is about to "flip".
Add to that the economic crisis and the recognition that there are too many people on earth for the environment to sustain (governments recognize the need for population reduction) and you have the understanding that 'time is short'.
- Re: ALL about? been there done that
16 y
4,278
- Re: ALL about? #27054
16 y
4,135
- Re: Revelation Melchizedek
16 y
4,418
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Daniel and Revelation prophecy about a kingdom AFTER Rome, and that is the kingdom smashed by the Rock, not Rome. If you look at where the "little horn" rises from on the beast in Rev., it's not Rome, again it's the last kingdom before Christ's return.- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,294
This is a reply to # 1,302,821Hello Melchizedek,
I never really "studied" prophecy, but I've noticed that Daniel's prophecies don't mention "earthquakes". The Lord said that "there will be earthquakes in various places" (plural) for the beginning of the "birth pangs". Revelation 6:12 speaks of a "great earthquake".
The prophecies Jesus spoke of seem to refer to different time periods and likely are ongoing in fullfillment.
But the whole issue of prophecy is actually just academic (like Paul, I also decided to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified), I just can't figure out how "preterists" can actually believe that Revelation has already happened.Advertisement
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- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
4,278
This is a reply to # 1,302,854That's the problem with alot of people. They just wanna know Jesus and nothing but him. Now, historically he is proven to have existed. That goes without saying. But he himself also said. I didn't come to start a new. He came to carry on what was already in existence. There's a reason Jews don't acknowledge him as the "messiah". And even that term is taken out of context. He never fulfilled ANY of the messionic prophecies. And most of the words are mistranslated from the original Hebrew and Aramaic text. It's hard for me to feel spiritual knowing that Constantine who was not religious and his bishop buddies decided what should be put into the bible and throw away the rest. It was a political move on their behalf. Plus there's different versions of the "apocolypse". And anyone with a brain knows the bible is not to be taken literally. The bible has been screwed around with so much it's not even funny. I do admit wholeheartedly that I wish to have the faith you people have one day. I admire you all but I just can't bring myself to believe much anymoreAdvertisement
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- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,141
This is a reply to # 1,303,493SECFORT24,
You said that you WHOLEHEARTEDLY "wish"/want.
If you are unhappy (poor in spirit) that the "wish"/desire is not being fulfilled and that the simple ability to believe something (faith) never really impressed you, then maybe a more heartful understanding of the truth about the creator would fulfill your desire (LOVE for God as our true heritage).
God is LOVE, not "faith" (we should have a "faith FOR faith", Romans 1:17). I have faith in the laws of physics, but I don't love them. Being Godly is not all about Jesus ONLY (are you going to love only Jesus and forget about the Father/creator?). We are not supposed to be God-fearing. Forget about everything you've ever heard or read (and always will hear), God will grant your wish more than you could imagine. Read my recent post in the "God without religion forum".
Jesus brought humanity the HOPE that we would be able to return to the creator (before Jesus was crucified, humanity was hopeless). In order to be truly Godly, we need to live by (abide by) faith, hope, and love, but the GREATEST of all three is LOVE...
1 Corinthians 13:13
"the greatest of these is LOVE" (God should be the fulfillment of a person's "wish").
When Paul said that he chose to know nothing but Christ AND Him crucified, he meant that all of the knowledge about what past cultures did in order to show devotion and all of the knowledge about prophecies, etc. did not interest him, he only really cared that the creator had finally sent the Messiah.
Read my post in the other forum.
God grants the right "wish".
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- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
4,176
This is a reply to # 1,303,542Not sure how educated you are in Textual Criticism, but the "bible" as you call it was never even written to be a gathered book. You quoting from Revelation, or Luke, or Mark, or any of the letters supposedly written by those Apostles (and that is Greek loosely translated for Delegate in Aramaic) is almost null in void.
The odds on ANY of those men being able to read or write is astronomical. True, they could've dictated to a scribe, but you've got to remember NONE of it was even written until at least 50 years after Yeshua was executed for Sedition. Yeshua, Jesus, wasn't a Christian, or a Catholic, but a devout Jew and Oral Tradition was something sacred to Jews and still is, so none of it was written until long after his death.
If you actually READ in different languages, get ahold of the oldest known copy of the copy of the copy of the copy of the copy of what MIGHT'VE been the original text of one of those "books", and you'll find out there is an entirely DIFFERENT story going on.
For instance:
Jesus wasn't arrested in a garden, rather a "Field of blood". A battlefield. They sent a Roman Cohort. That was anywhere from 600 to 800 heavily armed soldiers to arrest him and they met on the field with equal numbers. Ok. So not such a peaceful scene as the editors give us today.
There is also NO virgin prophecy AT ALL. You can't find it but in your Christian bible, but go get a Hebrew/English version of it, and it states a Young Maiden would give birth to a child and it was relating to something that happend HUNDREDS of years before the 2nd Temple Period.
You talk about Faith, and Love, and that God is both, and you're right.
But YOUR belief system teaches if I don't believe what you believe EXACTLY, I will burn in Hell. Where as Judaism doesn't teach any such thing!
Why would I put a gun to my daughters head and tell her to love me a certain way, when I just want her to love me? And what is her love worth if I get it from fear?
Do you know of Mithraism?!
It was a religion around for over a thousand years BEFORE Saul/Paul (who wasn't even an Apostle and banned by JEsus' brother James from Judea) that the highlight of it was Mithras was born December 25th, mother a virgin (common in Polythesitic religions but NOT Judaism). Dies for 3 days, comes back, and to be a member of him, you must eat bread which was his body and drink wine which was his blood... hmmm... sounds familiar.
Mix that with Judaism, and you have the beginnings of Catholicism.
My friend, I respect your conviction, but study what you believe so you can stand firmly behind it.
You don't have the whole story. And I'd be happy to spar a bit more.Advertisement
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- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
4,176
- Re: Revelation jfh
16 y
4,333
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,303,493"And anyone with a brain knows the bible is not to be taken literally. The bible has been screwed around with so much it's not even funny." - SECFORT24
I agree wholeheartedly.
And in regards to an attempt to interpret Revelations, one should beware.
22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(King James Bible, Revelation)Advertisement
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- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,179
This is a reply to # 1,303,608Scripture definitely has always been distorted, but not the text of it.
The understanding of it has been distorted all throughout history by the 6th day creation (you know who that is, don't you?).
Mankind has always felt more comfortable believing that what God says is open to INTERPRETATION (a parent can explain to you that children should not INTERPRET what the parent says).
The "mystery of lawlessness" (2 Thesslonians 2:7) remains a MYSTERY, but lawlessness has been in operation all throughout history because the 6th day creation would rather blame satan or the other person when something goes wrong in their lives instead of accept responsibility for their own actions.
God is not about the ability to read.
God is not about the bible (THE BIBLE IS ABOUT GOD).
Godliness is not about having the ability to glorify mankind.
We should not make God out to be an ICON (like a rockstar, etc.). We should not simply "FOLLOW" (be partisan like a fan of a rockstar), God should be our dream/wish, the result will be a "Godly spirit"/nature.
Many modern versions have been corrupted because they were changed in order to become politically correct. In scripture, God's MESSAGE is still intact for those who sincerely have the "wish"/dream to truly "know"/LOVE their true heritage, not simply show off their ability to believe something and "dance" for The Lord.
Prophecy, dreams/visions need to be interpreted (and tongues if used), but otherwise, what God says should UNDERSTOOD, not INTERPRETED to mean something convenient.
For those who want to "draw near" (because they have a "wish"), of course it is first necessary to believe that (faith 1) God exists, but it is also necessary to believe that (trust in,...faith 2) He will reward those who wish to draw near...
Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him" ..."FAITH FOR FAITH".
God's true MESSAGE is still intact, but man's message has been a distraction all throughout history. Not many have freed themselves from the status quo enough to let God fulfill a "wish" (the person at the well had a "wish").
But if your wish is to only have an intellectual understanding (instead of an "inner" understanding of God), you will retain the "strong delusion".
All verses are from the RSV (I consider it the most accurate and understandable).
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Jesus+w...
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- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
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This is a reply to # 1,303,882I'm not searching for Gnostic experience, nor just an intellecual one. Rather, you say Gods message is still there, despite the over 250,000 known errors in the RSV. And again, we're discussing a religion that teaches people the ONLY way into Heaven, is through a MORTAL man who was VOTED devine nearly 325 years after his execution. The Council of Nicea.
Sorry, but the 6th Day, as you refer, isn't even what you understand it to be. HaSatan, for instance, and the being most refer to as Lucifer, aren't even the same being.
But, The Church, being the ONLY authority for centuries after 325, had to make it all much simpler so the common man could get THEIR message. Shit, even Jesus is never straight up quoted as claiming to be God or the literal son of God. The term Son of Man, has been found in earlier writings, within the Dead Sea Scrolls. So he wasn't even the first one to use THAT.
And to say we NEEDED Jesus for salvation, is basically calling God a liar. You're saying that the promises given to Israel, weren't paid up. Or, you get around being that direct, and state the Jews got it wrong...
To be a Christian, as you obviously are, should mean that you study 1st Century Judaism. Or at least can read Hebrew. But you probably don't do either. And therefore, you'll be led by the nose.
Interpretation... trickey thing.
And you're right about that.
But answer this... WHY would God give an ultimatum?!
Why put a "gun" (hell) to my head and tell me to believe?
Isn't the reason for Free Will, to bone-marrow of it, to allow me to live as I will? To make my decision without fear or threats?
And if it isn't, then Free Will is a mirage.
"Pick up the reward, or I'll burn you."
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- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,375
This is a reply to # 1,303,991I've suffered 51 years of suicidal depression, so when someone says that they "suffer" (or are even upset/sad) because of a cut finger or are unhappy about something, out of kindness, I simply refrain from laughing in their face. I couldn't care less about how the world chooses to use their free will, let alone feel "bleeding heart" motivated to threaten anybody with ultimatums.
If someone feels constrained/haunted/pressured by believing in man's lies that they must report to worship/indoctrination centers every week and give their money to support man's empire of "religiosity" (even in this economic crisis), I'll offer HELP in realizing the misbeliefs taught by man, but a person would have to be pretty bad off in order for my heart to bleed for them (if that were possible).
I would think that God feels much the same about what His son suffered, but I really shouldn't be so presumptuous as to speak for Him (yet He has provided a "strong delusion" for those who insist on disregarding all of the "works of God").
In the Godly sense, "love" does not mean being a "bleeding heart".
If your "wish" really is wholehearted, you will someday understand the truth of God, but if your wish is not genuinely wholehearted, you will always resent Him,...simple as that.
I offer no apologies for what people want to regard as "ultimatums".Advertisement
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- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
4,319
This is a reply to # 1,304,024Depression is a horrid thing, I am sorry to hear you have had to deal with such an affliction. Honestly.
Now, back to our discussion, regarding the word of God... being the obvious intellectual you are, you have got to admit here that the entirely true story isn't being given in the known Christian bibles of today. I'm not saying the entire message is missed out on, actually many Rabbi's today quote from Mark because what Jesus was preaching was in line with 1st Century Judaism. In THAT book. And because it was the first one, possibly, it holds the closest position we have to what might've happened. The Gospel of Thomas was probably written down before Mark, since Jews were known to just QUOTE their leaders, and that is ALL Thomas is. There is also the hypopthicized "Q" gospel, and the message from all of that is of a deeper understanding than what the Christian bible offers at this point.
But to live with beliefs that state it's one way or no way... doesn't go along with Gods word. There is something prayed in Hebrew, that is so sacred and is the CORE of the Jewish belief now as it was then... Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai, Eloheinu, Adonai echad. Hear, O'Israel, the Lord, our God, the Lord is ONE.
To say God would be three, literally, makes it a Polytheistic religion and therefore no longer the Monotheistic religion that was and is and always will be Judaism. James, the younger brother of Jesus, never refers to his brother as God or the LITERAL son of God. He banned Paul from ever returning based upon Paul's teachings. I mean, there is a reason why they call your version of Christianity, PAULINE. He won out, got the popular vote, even though he never even so much as MET Jesus.
I'm not saying that by being a Christian someone isn't going to get into Heaven. I'm not saying that because I'm not God and it doesn't say it ANYWHERE in the Torah that that is what will happen if you're not Jewish. Noahide Law was provided for a reason.
My main problem with Christianity is that most Christians alive today, don't even know how it all started. Don't research anything. That they don't realize their religion was a Middle Eastern Religion based upon a man who most likely didn't look like a white man with flowing brown/blondish hair. Rather, probably looked more like Osama Bin Laden. They don't read up on how MEN voted on what books and writings would be included in the Cannon. And how other books, RICH and AMAZING with stories and teachings, were discarded and ordered destroyed.
It was a mass-production religion. Built for the people, by the people.
I am sure Jesus has wept for what has been done to his homeland and his people in HIS name... that is the saddest part.
I have FAITH. I have faith that God exists and accepts me no matter what. That god isn't a man with a penis, or woman with a vagina, that God is GOD. HaShem (the Name). And that what God created is beautiful and misunderstood by the masses. To appeal to a wider audience in Rome an Emperor took over a religion conflicted with different understandings of it's teacher, NOT CREATOR. Then you have a Hashesian Warlord, Mohammed, get high and go into trance-like states and have a scribe write down HIS message. Both religions, ashamed they are Judaic in origin, tried to eradicate the Jews. And yet, both worship the God of the Jews.
History is a powerful thing. Words have brought empires to burnt, bloody crumbled masses. And yet, here we are, on-line, discussing things that mean a lot to us. And nobody is getting ugly. Or rude. That says a lot about who and what we are.
I've enjoyed this. I hope you continue on your life's journey and never cease learning, accepting, and loving. I've always believed, once you think you know it all and can't be wrong, it just makes sense to accept stagnation and crawl in with the worms, because life isn't worth living if you're not LIVING.Advertisement
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- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,362
This is a reply to # 1,304,189SECFORT24,
You've done alot of research in order to make your sincere beliefs make sense. That's very admirable, but it is based on MAN'S wisdom. I'm not an intellectual at all, what I write is based on what God has taught me, it is not based on man's intellectual wisdom.
Mankind has a "religious" and self serving understanding of how to be spiritual (a PARTISAN/mechanical understanding that consists of gestures, rituals, etc.), but "God is LOVE", not the kind of worldly "romantic" or "bleeding heart" do-gooder or cute compassion love,...God's love for us is a PARENTAL love and we should have regard for each other's human rights (we're all His children/offspring).
Man's understanding of what it means to be spiritual toward God has always been based on ego, money (it's a business just like the Pharisees did) and the human need to feel comfortable (safety...a "security blanket"), but God is unseen reality ("invisible nature", Romans 1:20), He is the origin of all existence, but man tries to understand Him according to TEXT (what can be seen).
Mankind has always imagined itself as having the ability to "BECOME GODWORTHY" (how utterly ridiculous!!) and perform works/deeds (instead of realize that God did all of the "works of God", John 6:28 and 9:3 because we are unable to actually be "Godworthy"). Ultimately, "religion" is simply meant to be a businees for the "moneychangers", but it is also structured to be attractive to the ego of man.
God is "generic", yet the truth is the truth, Jesus is the Messiah/savior that the creator sent to purify our flesh (Hebrews 9:14). He is not the savior of a culture (Jewish culture), He is the savior of the whole human race...
Luke 3:6
"all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
It is only those who genuinely have a peaceful and just spirit/demeanor/nature who will have the GUARANTEE of what Jesus made available...
Ephesians 1:14
"which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it".
...and then we can also have our CONSCIENCE purified along with our purified flesh (Hebrews 9:14,...COMPLETE salvation).
I was a Christian for 22 years and I never heard of many of the things you mention, but Judaism is only the religion of a past culture, it has nothing to do with with the NEW testament/covenant way of knowing God, neither does the Torah or "Noahide law". God wants us to be free of all law that constrains us/dictates to us, He wants us to live under the law of LIBERTY...
James 1:25
"But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty...shall be blessed in his doing".
After reading that verse, if we remained unsure that we should live under the perfect law, The Lord clarified it as a "responsibility"...
James 2:12
"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty".
...after all, The Lord abolished the commands/commandments as a requirement because the human being simply does not have the ability to be "Godworthy"....
Ephesians 2:15
"by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".
There are many things that are clearly written in scripture that "Christianity" never wanted to believe or even notice (it would have destroyed their business), but The Lord tells us what He will do in the "last days"...
Acts 2:17
" 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams".
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=I+will+...
(POUR living water)
You'll see from my post in the "God minus religion" forum (I finally got the forum name right) that worship centers/buildings and spiritual teachers are unecessary (pastors will always FIERCELY reject such a message..."STRONG delusion").
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1302178#i
The names for God that past cultures used (Jehovah, Elohim, etc.) were meant only for those PAST cultures, but the The Father's "FOREVER" name is "I am who I am" (Exodus 3:14) because the SPIRITUAL man is meant to be integral with God in spirit (we should know who we are).
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- Re: Revelation been there done that
16 y
4,362
- Re: Revelation SECFORT24
16 y
4,319
- Re: Revelation Melchizedek
16 y
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This is a reply to # 1,303,991I did get tired of being "led by the nose". The church puts blinders on us, too. I left the church a while back and have confronted "pastors" with the truth ever since. The sad reality is that some pastors KNOW the truth and refuse to preach it. They know "Christmas" is really about Mithras, "Easter" is about Ishtar, the Sabbath is supposed to be the SEVENTH day of the week, not the first...but they don't care enough to make waves.
There is a difference between churchianity and Christianity. People are waking up one by one and realizing the truth.
And regarding Hell, if you know Hebrew, you already know Hell is the grave. There are actually a lot of Christians who know the truth about the state of the dead. I personally believe if you know Yahweh at all, you know he would not torture people for eternity. There is nothing just about neverending torture. No matter what crime a man commits, death was the highest sentence allowed in God's righteous law, and I believe it still is. Throwing out the old testament has done serious damage to our understanding of God and His ways.
The problem with churchianity is that we grow up in it. If a newborn is given tainted milk from birth he will continue to drink it not knowing any better. We are like that, wondering when we get fresh milk why it isn't sour, and if it's okay that it isn't sour. Churchians like the idea of people "getting what they deserve". How sad. That isn't love, and the pagans, the unchurched, the lost...they know better.
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- Re: Revelation dreamr
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This is a reply to # 1,304,868I grew up in a church that worshipped on Saturday, and also preached hell as being the grave. The idea of church, which is simply a bunch of believers gathering together to learn about the Bible and worship God, is not a bad thing. It is sad that so many people hate church, when church can be such a blessing. The devil is loving the fact that people are being turned away from religion. But thanks be to God that the battle is already won, and the devil hasn't got a chance.
Wendy - REST in the "works of GOD", not in y... been there done that
16 y
4,105
This is a reply to # 1,304,868Advertisement
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The sabbath "day" was for the ancient Israelites.
When the inner temple had a gate, it was closed for six WORKing days, but now in OUR DAYS, Jesus provides access to the Father without any more offerings/works.
Ezekiel 46:1
"shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened".
Mark 2:28
"so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath".
It is very unlikely that a PASTOR would ever admit the real truth of God (because it would put the "moneychangers" and the "hirelings" out of business). Even the most sincere would have to be independently wealthy or able to switch to a new career (even if they were willing to admit to themselves that all their time and money spent in seminary was a waste).
Just try to tell a pastor that worship centers/building are unscriptural.
...or try explaining to a pastor that spiritual teachers are unscriptural.
...do you think a pastor would like to know that H2O baptism is unscriptural and that we should only have the ONE baptism of "living" water of God's spirit?
How about telling a pastor that we should simply live under the LAW OF LIBERTY because the sin laws were abolished (they wouldn't have anymore control over us with sins/commands).
Tell a pastor that the only "works" that we should do is to simply TRUST that God did it all (the "works of God" should manifest themselves in us so that we REST in The Lord [and be bored]).
Try telling churchgoers that their empire of intellectualism and pride (imagining "Godworthiness") is false.
The only people who will "wake up" to the real truth are those who have nothing to lose by doing so.
Only when we give up trying to be Godly/Godworthy can we become "clay to the potter", then the potter will make us.
- Re: REST in the "works of GOD", not ... dreamr
16 y
4,023
This is a reply to # 1,304,912Advertisement
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Isaiah 66:22,23
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
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This is a reply to # 1,302,854Hi Been There,
It's not that Jesus, John, and Daniel were speaking of different times, just different (political or geological) viewpoints. If two men eat ice cream one may say it's cold and the other may say it's sweet, but they're describing the same thing. All scripture is profitable for teaching, but you are right about your priorities. Without faith hope and love, what good is knowledge? The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.
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Melchizedek,
I also believe that N.T. prophecy is spiritually recurrent (spiritually, there is ongoing fulfillment/repititions).
I'm hard pressed to think of the period 33-70 A.D. as one "generation" (Jesus spoke to "this generation"). I think He was referring to the "generation of humanity" that now has the benefit of His crucifixion (us) and has existed for 2000 years (the SPIRITUAL significance/relevance of prophecy). No doubt, there is unmistakeable reference to the seige and destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. also, but even understanding the spiritual significance is of no actual benefit to our souls. It can be interesting, but it's also a dangerous distraction from God's will (REST in The Lord) that requires caution. The obsessive focus on prophecy causes fear.
It is wise for unbelievers to fear not knowing God, but when we come to know Him, our love should be made "perfect" and no longer include any fear of (Gal. 4:6) "Abba Father"/dear father (1 John 4:18 "perfect love" casts out fear, Mark 12:30 leaving no room for fear, Isaiah 29:13 "commandment of men").
1 Corinthians 13:10
"when the perfect comes, the imperfect shall pass away".
The introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1) is good for teaching and training in self discipline, etc., but since Jesus is the only spiritual authority in the universe (Matthew 28:18), we need not even be knowledgeable about prophecy (ALL knowledge will pass away).
- Re: Revelation rudenski
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If you interpret, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge." with- The respect of love is the starting point of all understanding" the words tend to reflect the substance and personality of who and what God who is love is. Yahshua's understanding of that love is what changed the world but few of his followers follow in his footsteps. I had to leave the church post 9-11 as my fellow believers had lost their repect for love. In one's and two's I sense sense that some Christians are returning to the original truth about love and the testimony of it by the witness of its great teacher. I have generally dropped speaking through Yahshua and mostly speak directly to Yah but I don't really call it prayer anymore. It is more like a conversation. If you want to get to know about the nature of God and what is to come then you might begin by opening a dialogue with love. Love is rich word that moves well beyond the carnal understanding of it while still encompassing the carnal. I think that was Yahshua's message to the world. Yahshua learned to see love inside the unlovable parts of men. He railed against their hard hearts but loved the inner lover in each of us. When the last day comes he saw how the thief on the cross in each thought and ideal were to be separated from one another for their love or absence of it but his followers want an all or nothing salvation. I for one am glad Yahshua is an advocate for love but there are greater lessons of love to e revealed becauce he is gone to the father. You can add to the love story. As soon as we quit adding to the love story then ook is closed. Maybe this is why Christians are so mean? They don't want to take on the commandment to do greater things than Yahshua and through their rebellion let Yahshua and greater love die on the cross each day? It takes a mean spirit to crucify a man every day. My Yahshua is gone to the father and it is up to me make my own love story. My story might not be as great as that fine young Jewish teacher's story but I am not going to get stuck on worship him either. Yahshua was made out of flesh and not worthy of worship. The love in him was but so is the inside each of us. The world ends when each(each meaning all spirits and souls) of us has finished telling our love story. Christians have a good teacher. They should follow his commandment to do greater things than raising the dead and making wine... Each of us should expand the love story to include all. That is my take on the rarely followed but much trumpeted religion of Christianity anyway.
- The revelation of love and a TWO way... been there done that
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rudenski,
It has always seemed ridiculous to me that 1 Corinthians chapter 13 (the LOVE chapter of scripture) is so neglected ("God is LOVE").
The book of Job is thought to be a story about faith, but faith couldn't have motivated Job to endure the way he did, it was a LOVE story.
That's the main misunderstanding of what it means to be Godly (having a peaceful and just spirit/"nature", not "personality"). I also believe that some "Christians" today have learned to largely disregard the bible as an "authority" (especially now that "religiosity" is now including megachurches and televangelists) even though they are told that the bible is an authority. I also believe that a few are learning a healthy respect for what it means to be truly Godly.
For the last 15 years of my being "christian", I might have averaged a church attendance of 5 times a year (I was never really enthusiastic to be a good "christian". I was "poor in spirit"), made no habit of reading about self condemnation, made no habit to patronize, flatter, or complain with prayer about what God had not given me, but God could not really be my teacher until I completely GAVE UP church attendance two years ago (I became "clay to the potter"). Then, He taught me what the real meaning of love is (yes, love is the starting point/reference point of true understanding).
There are believer's (brethren IN CHRIST, they are only "kinfolk" IN CHRIST) but the brethren of humanity are "in my heart" because they don't believe in "religiosity" as my hypocritical kinfolk do.
I've always noticed more of a Godly spirit outside of the "church" than inside.
There's enough reason in this life to be "poor in spirit", but as long as a person uses the "Doctor Feelgood" panacea of religion, we will never have the present inner heaven and be prepared for the new heaven (Revelation 21:1)...
Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".- Church dreamr
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Maybe you were going to the wrong church? The Bible promotes meeting together with fellow believers, to worship together and strengthen faith.
Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Hebrews 10:24,25
and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Also, consider evangelism. The churches are behind most missionaries, and think of how many people have given their hearts to Jesus after going to church.
Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Early Christians, the ones who had the Truth before it was distorted, found importance in meeting regularly at the synagogues. Jesus taught in the synagogues on countless Sabbaths, and His disciples continued this practice long after He was risen, ministering and bringing thousands to salvation. Those that became saved didn't stop going but continued to attend to further their relationship with Jesus.
1 Timothy 4:13,16 (Paul speaking)
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
There is no doubt that only a small portion of church-goers today have real faith, but I don't think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Wendy- The CHURCH (outer temple) hung on th... been there done that
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dreamr,
No doubt, Jesus would prefer that we have high regard for what He did on the cross.
His Father would also.
"in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). Jesus was speaking of the temple of His body.
If Christianity took notice of what Jesus did on the cross, we would have been taught about the 'water and the sword'. I'm not talking about a glass of water that Paul drank or some water that spilled when Jesus ate the last supper. I'm not talking about any mention of water that is only found in scripture as a result of intensive scrutiny and research, I'm talking about water that was AT THE CROSS and flowed out of CHRIST'S BODY.
God foreknew that, true to form, humanity might not notice this water. He tried to make it more obvious...
1 John 5:6
"This is he who came by water and blood" (John 7:38, Acts 1:5, Rev. 7:16, Ephes. 4:5).
...but many people simply don't want to make a clear division (as a sword would) between GOOD/EVIL (the tree in the Garden) and have a Godly nature/spirit. That is why humanity has never really had the tendency to notice the LIVING water that flowed from Christ's side. That is why humanity has never noticed the true word of God ("sword of the SPIRIT", Ephesians 6:17). We are supposed to know God in SPIRIT and truth.
We are taught that the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1) is "THE FINAL AUTHORITY", but Jesus said...
Matthew 28:18
"And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..." (we read it as a "whole verse" and miss the truth we need to understand).
The "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) tells us that we should live under the law of liberty (James 1:25 and 2:12) and that the bible is only good for TRAINING in righteous self discipline, etc. and that after we learn the introductory doctrine, we should mature in our RELATIONSHIP with God so we can "enter by the door" (John 10:1) and "walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16, 25).
When two or more are gathered in Jesus's name, He is there ALSO, but even when we are alone, He is (should be) IN US.
1 Corinthians 3:16
"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?"
1 Corinthians 6:19
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within"
I'm not a spiritual teacher, there should not be any spiritual teachers, "anointing" will teach everything (1 John 2:27).
"God is ONE" (Galatians 3:20).
Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily".
You're not supposed to "GO TO" church (no public prayer), our temple should be the place of constant worship by our behavior/demeanor. We're not supposed to worship with our lips or "flatter" God with our patronizing or gestures. Our complaint/prayers that His grace is not sufficient ("Gimmeee, Gimmee, Gimmee") for us are not really the attitude that God would prefer.
Now, He will "POUR" out His spirit on ALL FLESH.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=I+will+...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=all+fle...
- Re: The CHURCH (outer temple) hung o... dreamr
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What you are implying is that since we are to live by the Spirit, there is no need for a literal temple, for the one replaces the other. But yet, even before Jesus came to Earth, since the beginning of sin, faith alone is the only thing that saved anyone. Living by the Spirit is not a new thing, it has been the way since Adam and Eve.
God doesn't change, He is constant. If He wanted people to worship physically as well as spiritually in the Old Testament, then there is no reason to think that He doesn't want that anymore. The only change is in the sacrificial and cleansing laws because Jesus cleansed us once and for all.
Am I to understand that you believe in universalism? If that is the case, then we are certainly on different planes here.
Wendy- Re: The CHURCH (outer temple) hung o... been there done that
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dreamer,
I don't know anything about this "universalism" you speak of (nor do I want to).
Just like humanity has done all throughout history, you can rationalize anything you wish to believe. It is much easier to be TOLD what to do and believe than to think for yourself and care about what God LIKES. God sent a "STRONG delusion" for those who'd rather regard Him as an ICON (like a rockstar, celebrity) and think of Him as a MASTER/taskmaster (instead of "Dear Father"). Humanity has always used their ability to believe something (faith) to simply FOLLOW (instead of genuinely LOVE God) and be a slave/servant (instead of a "FRIEND of God") and resent/fear Him as a PUNISHER, finding COMMANDS/COMMANDMENTS to be characteristic of the god they have chosen/made in their hearts.
While it is true that God chose us, we each have the option to CHOOSE HIM. Then, He will no longer be an ICON, we will know Him as "Abba Father" and our love will be made PERFECT (and live under the PERFECT law) and find the wise counsel of a loving kind parent instead of ultimatums in scripture.
Each person makes their own god (whether they use scripture text and man's teachings to form an "iconic" god or they use a pagan "religion" makes no difference).
"Church buildings"/temples (worship centers) are "shrines"...
Acts 19:24
"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man...".
Man's version of who and what the creator is is "666" (the god of A "man"), but the Lord of "a" NEW creation is the real God (Lord of heaven and earth).
Choose today.
John 7:39 (change?)
"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".
Let anointing quicken you (1 Corin. 15:45 IN THE KJV) and receive the guarantee of what Jesus made available to ALL FLESH...
2 Corin. 1:22
"he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee".
2 Corin. 5:5
"He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee".
Ephesians 1:14
"which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,...".
The "hirelings" never taught TRUTH...
John 10:12
"He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not,...".
John 10:27
"MY sheep...".- Re: The CHURCH (outer temple) hung o... dreamr
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I admit that I'm in over my head with this debate, and I don't have a wordy, sophisticated reply. I agree with a lot of what you say, God is our Father and Friend, and most definitely not a cruel punisher, but I still stand by my belief that Christians meeting together to worship is important.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood and thought you were implying that you were a universalist. It's nothing worth going into.
Take care.
Wendy
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This is a reply to # 1,304,878dreamr,
Wordy, sophisticated replies come from the "PHARISEE" types that have no regard for real/OBJECTIVE truth (so be glad you're not one of them).
God had Pilate ask Jesus "What is TRUTH?" (Pilate was referring to the fact that humanity has little concern about what is really true, humanity prefers SUBJECTIVE truth instead of OBJECTIVE/unbiased truth).
Pilate wasn't a philosopher (but nobody seems to notice it as a strange question) and the question wasn't answered either (still, nobody notices), but "TRUTH" is extremely important to God....
2 Thessalonians 2:10
"because they refused to love the [objective] truth AND SO BE SAVED".
So be encouraged that you don't have the mind of a fast talking intellectualist devoid of genuine humility.
Romans 12:2
"be transformed by the renewal of your MIND".
I'm not saying that Christians cannot meet together and "share" understanding/learning, I'm saying that sincere "worship" should only be "INNER" (your personal worship should not be with "lips"/public prayer). A home gathering should not be an assembly specifically for "worship" (gathering in His name to celebrate growing in Him is different than "worship"). The way YOU worship The Lord should be PERSONAL about His grace TO YOU.
Amos 5:21
"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies".
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