Remedies for Arthritis

(From my book "Collected Remedies")

Arthritis is a disease that causes pain and loss of movement of the joints. The word arthritis literally means joint inflammation (arth=joint, ritis=inflammation), and refers to more than 100 different diseases.

One Highly Effective Arthritis Remedy: 

A good friend of the author’s successfully used the following regimen with 100% success to rid not only himself, but also friends and two other family members of various forms of arthritis:

1) Plant Minerals- minerals are the building blocks of the enzymes necessary for the utilization of all other vitamins, etc. (rock minerals are a waste of money since only 5-15% can be broken down by the body before being eliminated. Minerals already digested by plants are potentially 100% absorbable.)

2) Colloidal Gold - gold has even been used by mainstream medicine to treat severe Arthritis.

3) MSM, Glucosamine, Chondrotin, Collagen

4) Calcium with Ostivone

5) Colloidal Silver- some arthritis is believed to be viral related and colloidal silver is an extremely good anti-viral agent.

Since arthritis comes in so many different forms and since no two people are alike, what works for one person or one kind of arthritis may not work for another.  Following are other remedies, treatments and information which have reported to have been effective with at least some people and some forms of arthritis:

Juices for arthritis:

• Black cherry juice is good for arthritis. Take two glasses of this juice twice a day (each glass contains four ounces of juice diluted with four ounces of water). You can discontinue this treatment once the pain clears up.
• People with rheumatoid arthritis should include in their daily diets juices high in the anti-inflammatory nutrients. These nutrients include beta-carotene (found in parsley, broccoli and spinach) and copper (found in carrots, apples and ginger).
• Rheumatoid arthritis improves with a glass or two a day of pineapple juice. Pineapple is a rich source of the enzyme bromelain, which has strong anti-inflammatory properties.

Other Useful Juices:

• Carrot, celery, and cabbage juice. Add a little parsley.
• Potato juice (If you are not allergic to this.)
• Cherry juice.
• Take juice of half a lemon before every meal and before going to bed.
• Carrot, beet, and cucumber.
• During acute stage, one pint to one quart celery juice daily.
• Radish, garlic

Caution: Certain juices may cause adverse reactions in people with osteoarthritis. Avoid citrus fruits, and be careful with vegetables from the nightshade family, including potatoes, tomatoes, peppers and eggplant. Citrus seems to promote swelling, and nightshades contain psyllium alkaloids, which cause problems for some people.

Remedies

• Dilute five drops of essential oil of ginger in 20 drops of a carrier oil such as wheat germ or almond oil (available from health shops), and massage into painful areas. Remember that essential oils should never be taken internally.
• Glucosamine sulphate. This is a glucose-based chemical produced naturally in healthy joints, where it is used to repair and maintain cartilage, and seems to be effective in reducing arthritic pain, at least in mild to moderate cases. So far, no adverse side effects have been reported, but it is the subject of major clinical trials in the US, so we should soon know a great deal more.
• Bathua.  Drink one tablespoon of the juice of fresh leaves of bathua  every day on an empty stomach for two-three months. Do not add anything to the juice and do not eat anything for two hours before and after.
• Warm mustard oil, spread it over Madar leaf (Indian ) and foment the joint by spreading the leaf over the joint and keeping it there for a few hours for arthritis relief.
• On an empty stomach take three to four walnuts or one fresh coconut.
• Gin and raisins.  (I inow this sounds crazy – but I have personally spoken with several people who swear by it!)

• Put three shot glasses or small containers on your counter.
•  In each shot glass, put 9 (not 8 or 10) golden raisins, not regular raisins.
• Pour just enough gin over them to just barely cover them (any kind of gin should do).  By the 3rd day, the gin should be absorbed by the raisins.
•  Eat the raisins from one shot glass, and set the glass up again with 9 more golden raisins, just barely covered with any kind of gin, and put the fresh glass at the end of the line.
• Each day, eat the 9 oldest raisins, then set it up again.
• Repeat until pain-free, usually 72 hours. It is truly amazing. And cheap!

• Mix equal parts of the following herbs: black cohosh, genitian root, angelica, colombo, scull cap, valerian, rue and buckthorn bark, and take one heaping teaspoon in a cup of boiling water. Let steep, and drink three 1/2 cups per day.
• Alfalfa (Medicago saliva): Alfalfa is a folk remedy for arthritis in southern Appalachia. Alfalfa tea is rich with nutritive minerals. We recommend that you do not take the alfalfa powder; take the tea instead. Alfalfa contains 1-canavanine, an amino acid that can cause symptoms that are similar to those of systemic lupus, an autoimmune disease that can also cause joint pain. Some scientific studies show that these symptoms can occur in both animals and humans as a result of eating alfalfa. The amino acid is not present to any significant amount in alfalfa tea.  Place 1 ounce of alfalfa in a pot. Cover with 1 quart of water and boil for thirty minutes. Strain and drink the quart throughout the day. Do this for two to three weeks, and then take a break for seven to ten days before starting again.
• Angelica (Angelica archangelica): Angelica is an herb that has been used in European folk medicine since antiquity. It can be used to treat arthritis. The Western variety of angelica has 12 anti-inflammatory constituents, ten antispasmodic (muscle relaxant) constituents, and five anodyne (pain-relieving) ones. The Chinese sometimes use their native variety of the plant (Angelica sinensis) for the same purpose. The Chinese species is sold in North America under the names dang gui or dong quai.  Place 1 tablespoon of the cut roots of either species of angelica in 1 pint of water and bring to a boil. Cover and boil for two minutes. Remove from heat and let stand, covered, until the water cools to room temperature. Strain and drink the tea in 3 doses during the day for two to three weeks at a time. Then, take a break for seven to ten days and start the treatment again if desired.
• Black Cohosh (Cimicifuga racemosa): An American Indian treatment for arthritis involved using the root of black cohosh. There are five species in the Cimicifuga genus worldwide that have been used to treat rheumatism. Black cohosh contains aspirin-like substances as well as other anti- inflammatory and antispasmodic constituents.  Simmer 1 teaspoon of black cohosh root in 1 cup of boiling water for twenty minutes. Strain and drink the tea in 2 divided doses during the day. Do this for two to three weeks, and then take a break for seven to ten days before starting the treatment again.
• Boswellia has unique anti-inflammatory action, much like the conventional non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) used by many for inflammatory conditions. Unlike NSAIDs, however, long-term use of boswellia does not lead to irritation or ulceration of the stomach.
• Celery (Apium graveolens): The remedy of eating raw or cooked celery seeds or large amounts of the celery plant to treat rheumatism arrived in North America with the European immigrants. Using celery to treat rheumatism persists today in North American professional herbalism. Various parts of the celery plant contain more than 25 different anti-inflammatory compounds. And, taken as a food, celery is rich in minerals: A cup of celery contains more than 340 milligrams of potassium. (A potassium deficiency may contribute to some symptoms of arthritis.)  Dosage: Place 1 teaspoon of celery seeds in a cup. Fill the cup with boiling water. Cover and let stand for fifteen minutes. Strain and drink. Drink 3 cups a day during an acute arthritis attack.
• Devil's claw is a good anti-inflammatory agent. Take 1,000 milligrams (1 gram) twice daily.
• Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate): Magnesium has both anti-inflammatory and anti- arthritic properties and it can be absorbed through the skin. Magnesium is one of the most important of the essential minerals in the body, and it is commonly deficient in the American diet. A New England remedy for arthritis is a hot bath of Epsom salts. The heat of the bath can increase circulation and reduce the swelling of arthritis.  Fill a bathtub with water as hot as you can stand. Add 2 cups of Epsom salts. Bathe for thirty minutes, adding hot water as necessary to keep the temperature warm. Do this daily as often as you like. (If you are pregnant or have cardiovascular disease consult your doctor before taking very hot baths.)
• Feverfew has been used for centuries for arthritis. Some studies have found that the anti-inflammatory effects of this herb are greater than those achieved by NSAIDs. Take 250 milligrams once or twice daily.
• Ginger (Zingiber officinale) In one study, Indian researchers gave three to seven grams of ginger a day to 18 people with osteoarthritis and 28 with rheumatoid arthritis. More than 75 percent of those participating in the study reported at least some relief from pain and swelling. Even after more than two years of taking these high doses of ginger, none of the people reported side effects. Many people drink ginger tea for osteoarthritis. A ginger compress is also beneficial for arthritis.
• Ginseng Liquor (Panax quinquefolius). Ginseng contains constituents called ginsenosides, which have a variety of pharmacological actions. It is an adaptogen - it increases the body's ability to handle a wide variety of stresses.  Chop 3.5 ounces of ginseng and place in 1 quart of liquor like vodka. Let the mixture stand for five to six weeks in a cool dark place, turning the container frequently. Strain and take 1 ounce of the liquid after dinner or before bedtime every night for up to three months. Then, take a break for two weeks before starting the treatment again.

Notes: Be sure to use American ginseng, not Asian ginseng (Panax ginseng) for this remedy. Asian ginseng can actually aggravate the pain of arthritis. If you are prone to gout, the alcohol may aggravate your condition. In that case take ginseng tea without alcohol.

• Hop Tea (Humulus lupulus): The hop plant contains at least 22 constituents that have anti- inflammatory activities, including several that act through the same cellular mechanisms as steroid drugs. Four constituents have antispasmodic properties, and ten may act as sedatives. The fresher the plant, the better. Today, hop tea is a popular remedy for rheumatism.  Place 2 or 3 teaspoons of hop leaves in a cup and fill with boiling water. Cover the cup and let stand for fifteen minutes. Drink the tea while it's warm. Drink 1 to 3 cups between dinner and bedtime as needed.
• Licorice acts in the body like cortisone, without the harmful side-effects. Licorice is believed to enhance the action of bupleuri. Licorice also has significant anti-inflammatory and anti-allergy activity. Licorice components are able to bind to glucocorticoid receptors on cells and exert glucocorticoid-like effects. It has been used historically in the treatment of inflammation, allergy, asthma and other conditions that put added stress on the adrenals. Long-term use of licorice can cause an elevation of blood pressure.   Take 2 capsules daily.
• Mustard Plaster (Brassica alba, Brassica juncea) Mustard plaster is a popular counter-irritant treatment for arthritis. The irritating substance in mustard is allyl- isothyocyanate. This constituent is not activated, however, until the seeds are crushed and mixed with some liquid. Only then does the mustard produce the irritation necessary for the counter-irritant effect.  Crush the seeds of white or brown mustard or grind them in a seed grinder. Moisten the mixture with vinegar, and then sprinkle with flour. Spread the mixture on a cloth. Place the cloth, poultice side down, on the skin. Leave on for no more than twenty minutes. Remove if the poultice becomes uncomfortable. After removing the poultice, wash the affected area.
• Oregano (Origanum vulgare). Oregano, is a powerful antioxidant. The antioxidant activity of oregano and other medicinal mints is due in large part to rosmarinic acid, a compound with antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant and antiviral properties. The antioxidants in oregano may help prevent the cell damage caused by free radicals. Free radical reactions are probably involved in inflammation, degenerative arthritis and the aging process in general. And evidence is accumulating that antioxidants may help relieve osteoarthritis and Pineapple (Ananas comosus). Bromelain, a chemical in pineapple, helps prevent inflammation. Athletic trainers have been reportedly recommending pineapple to athletes to prevent and treat sports injuries. It is believed to have beneficial effect on arthritis also. Bromelain can help the body get rid of immune antigen complex, compounds that are implicated in some arthritic conditions. It also helps digest fibrin, another compound suspected of being involved in some types of arthritis.
• Red pepper, Cayenne pepper (Capsicum spp.) Red pepper interferes with pain perception. The pain-relieving chemical in red pepper, capsaicin, triggers the body to release endorphins, nature's own opiates. Red pepper also contains aspirin-like compounds known as salicylates.  Compounds in red pepper can also help relieve arthritis when you apply the herb to the skin. Researchers have discovered that you'll get significant pain relief if you apply capsaicin cream directly to painful arthritic joints four times daily. In one study of this treatment, the capsaicin cream reduced RA pain by more than half. Osteoarthritis pain was reduced by about one-third.  Place 1 ounce of cayenne pepper in 1 quart of rubbing alcohol (a poison not for internal use). Let stand for three weeks, shaking the bottle each day. Then, using a cloth, apply to the affected area during acute attacks of pain. Leave the solution in place for ten to twenty minutes, then wipe clean. You can also use an OTC cream that contain capsicum like Zostrix or Capzasin-P.
• Rosemary (Rosemarinus officinalis). Drinking rosemary tea to treat arthritis is an American folk medicine practice. The plant's leaves contain four anti-inflammatory substances-earnosol, oleanolic acid, rosmarinic acid, and ursolic acid. Carnosol acts on the same anti-inflammatory pathways as both steroids and aspirin, oleanolic acid has been marketed as an antioxidant in China, rosmarinic acid acts as an anti-inflammatory, and ursolic acid, which makes up about four percent of the plant by weight, has been shown to have anti-arthritic effects in animal trials.  Put 1/2 ounce of rosemary leaves in a 1-quart canning jar and fill the jar with boiling water. Cover tightly and let stand for thirty minutes. Drink a cup of the hot tea before going to bed and have another cupful in the morning before breakfast. Do this for two to three weeks, and then take a break for seven to ten days before starting the treatment again.
• Sesame Seeds (Sesame indicum): A remedy for arthritis from Chinese folk medicine is to eat sesame seeds. One-half ounce of the seeds contains about 4 grams of essential fatty acids, 175 milligrams of calcium, 64 milligrams of magnesium, and, 0.73 milligrams of copper. Increased copper intake may be important during arthritis attacks because the body's requirements go up during inflammation.  Grind up 1/2 ounce of sesame seeds in a coffee grinder and sprinkle on your food at meal- time. You can use this treatment for as long as you like.
• Stinging Nettle (Urtica dioica): Stinging nettle is an official remedy for rheumatism in Germany. It is the most important herb to consider for treating early- onset arthritis. Nettle juice contains an anti-inflammatory component similar to that of steroid drugs. It also nettle contains 47 parts per million of the mineral boron, figured on a dry-weight basis. Boron is an important mineral for arthritis. (The Rheumatoid Disease Foundation suggests that three milligrams of boron, taken daily, may be helpful in treating osteoarthritis and RA.)  Directions: Take 1 tablespoon of nettle juice three times a day. You can freeze the juice for later Turmeric (Curcumin, Curcuma longa) Curcumin, the yellow pigment of turmeric, has significant anti-inflammatory action. Curcumin has been shown to be as effective as cortisone or phenylbutazone in certain models of inflammation. Curcumin also exhibits many beneficial effects on liver functions. The typical dosage of curcumin is 400 to 600 mg 3 times daily. Curcumin is sometimes given in combination with an equal dose of an extract of the pineapple plant called bromelain, which appears to possess anti-inflammatory properties of its own.
• Curcumin is thought to be quite safe. Side effects are rare and are generally limited to occasional allergic reactions and mild stomach upset. However, safety in very young children, pregnant or nursing women, and those with severe liver or kidney disease has not been established.
• Wild Cucumber Bark Described as "the best plant for treating rheumatism and arthritis" according to herbalists. It can be put in drinking alcohol or made as a tea.  Dosage: Take a teaspoon of it three times a day and one tablespoon at night.   Note: Wild cucumber is a laxative. When taking wild cucumber bark, the dose should be kept below that which loosens the bowels.
• Wild Yam (Dioscorea villosa): Wild yam contains diosgenin, a steroid constituent with anti-inflammatory properties. Wild yam tea is a popular folk remedy for muscular rheumatism. (Some eat the root of the wild yam instead.)  Place 1 ounce of wild yam root in a 1-quart canning jar. Add a few slices of fresh ginger root. Fill the jar with boiling water, put the lid on tightly, and let the mixture stand until it reaches room temperature. Drink 2 to 3 cups of the tea each day for three to six weeks, then take a break for seven to ten days.
• Willow (Salix, various species) Willow bark was the original herbal aspirin. It contains a chemical called salicin, which the Bayer Company eventually transformed into aspirin that so many people with arthritis take daily. Willow bark tea has pain-relieving and anti-inflammatory effects similar to those of aspirin. But because the irritation-causing ingredient in aspirin tablets is diluted in tea, you'll have less risk of stomach upset, ulcer and overdose if you take the tea instead of the pills.
• Wintergreen (Gaulteria procumbens): Wintergreen was used to treat arthritis by the American Indian tribes. The plant was accepted in the United States as an official medicine for arthritis in 1820. The chief active pain-relieving constituent in wintergreen is methyl-salicylate. This compound can be toxic when consumed in concentrated wintergreen oil, even when applied to the skin, so stick with using the dried herb.  Place 1 or 2 teaspoons of dried wintergreen leaves in a cup and cover with boiling water. Cover the cup and let steep for fifteen minutes. Strain and drink 3 cups a day. Do this for two to three weeks, and then take a break for seven to ten days before starting again.
• Yucca -Yucca has long been used to reduce arthritic pain.  A double-blind clinical trial indicated a saponin extract of yucca demonstrated a positive therapeutic effect. It was suggested that effects were due to indirect effects on the gastrointestinal flora. It is possible that yucca decreases bacterial endotoxin absorption thus reducing this inhibition of cartilage synthesis.
• Sarsparilla tea, alfalfa tea, cucumber juice and gelatin have all been reported as successful remedies for arthritis.  Remember, what works for one person may or may not work for another.  This seems to be especially true as regards arthritis remedies.  Keep trying until you find what works the best for you.

Caution:  Chaparral (Larrea tridentata) Chaparral is widely promoted in health food stores as a treatment for arthritis. In the early 1990s, reports of liver toxicity for chaparral appeared in scientific documents, and 18 cases of adverse effects to chaparral have since been reported to the USFDA. Two of those patients required liver transplants. The individuals who were poisoned took powdered chaparral in the form of capsules, ingesting toxic constituents. You can avoid this by taking a tea instead. All folk uses for chaparrel uses it in the form of either externally as a wash or internally as a tea and not powdered herb. We recommend that you do not use this herb due to its toxicity.

Vitamin and Nutrition Therapy for Arthritis:

• A low-fat, low-cholesterol diet filled with the complex carbohydrates found in vegetables and grains has been shown to be very helpful in dealing with many cases of arthritis. This type of diet reduces the fat in the tiny arteries that supply blood to the joints, allowing more oxygen and In addition to a good low-fat diet, a number of vitamins, minerals and other nutrients are useful for arthritis.
• Vitamin therapy may relieve certain arthritic symptoms. Beta carotene (vitamin A) has an antioxidant effect on cells, neutralizing destructive molecules called free radicals. Vitamins C, B6, and E, as well as zinc, are thought to enhance collagen production and the repair of connective tissue. Vitamin C may also be advised for people taking aspirin, which depletes the body's vitamin C balance. Niacin (vitamin B3) may also be helpful, although excessive use may aggravate liver problems.
• Boron plays a major role in bone health. It helps the body regulate calcium, keeping it from leaving the body and weakening the bones. Epidemiological studies from several countries have shown that in areas where the soil contains more boron and people are presumably eating boron-rich foods grown in that soil, there is less osteoarthritis. When boron supplements were given to hospitalized arthritis patients, some 90 percent reported "complete remission" of symptoms. Apples, nuts and green leafy vegetables are good sources of boron.
• Bromelain, an enzyme derived from pineapple, has a notable anti-inflammatory action. Take 200 to 400 milligrams three times daily, between meals.
• Black currant seed oil, borage oil, evening primrose oil, fish oil, and flaxseed oil contain essential fatty acids that increase the production of anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. Take 500 to 1,000 milligrams of any of these oils twice daily. It may take several weeks to notice an improvement in symptoms.
• DLPA (dl- phenylalanine ) is a simple nutritional amino acid. Studies have shown that DLPA effectively blocks arthritis pain and joint inflammation in many patients. It is much safer than the standard arthritis medications. It takes longer to show an effect compared to standard anti-pain and anti-arthritis drugs. More about DLPA.
• Glucosamine, a compound of the simple sugar glucose and the amino acid glutamine, has been shown to be an effective natural means of slowing cartilage breakdown and encouraging cartilage repair. With continued use, it helps to relieve joint pain and stiffness. Several studies have shown that glucosamine can be a more effective pain reliever than ibuprofen for arthritis. Take 500 milligrams of glucosamine three times daily. It may take as long as six to eight weeks to attain maximum relief.
• ·Many people with arthritis are deficient in manganese, a trace element that activates important enzymes and is necessary for normal skeletal development. Take 5 milligrams twice daily for one month.
• Methylsulphonylmethane (MSM), a natural source of sulfur, can help relieve arthritis pain and maintain joint health. Sulfur is an essential component of make up connective tissue. Take 500 milligrams three or four times daily, with meals. Sulfur is naturally found in meat, milk, poultry and fish.
• Omega-3 fatty acids, found in many fish, have shown promise in fighting arthritis. Some 26 osteoarthritis patients ranging in age from 52 to 85 were given either an omega-3 fatty acid called EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) or a placebo. Six months later, those who had received the EP A had less pain and were better able to perform normal activities, as compared to the placebo group.
• Pantothenic acid, part of the vitamin B complex, has been shown to help prevent and alleviate arthritis. The connection between this nutrient and arthritis was made nearly forty years ago. But there is definitive study that shows precisely how it works. Many people do find relief from their symptoms with pantothenic acid. Take 3 g. daily. It will take one to two weeks before you see any result. If no results are seen in three weeks, discontinue the supplement. Some physicians recommend up to 12 g. of pantothenic acid a day, but this should be taken only under your doctor's supervision.
• S-adenosylmethionine (SAM or SAM-e) is an amino acid derivative that has been shown in clinical trials to be comparable in effect to the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin. Like glucosamine, SAM plays a role in the formation of cartilage. It also exerts a mild analgesic effect. In one study, it was shown to be even more effective than Motrin in treating the pain of arthritis. Try taking it as follows:
• Week 1: Take 400 milligrams three times a day.
• Week 2: Take 400 milligrams twice a day.
• Week 3: Reduce to a maintenance dosage or 200 milligrams twice a day.
• Selenium is a powerful antioxidant that fights free-radical damage. Take 200 micrograms of selenium daily. You'll find selenium in almonds, barley and oranges.
• Shark cartilage may be useful. Each day, take one 750-milligram capsule per 11 pounds of body weight (or 1 gram of powder per 15 pounds of body weight), divided into three equal doses. Once you have achieved relief of pain, reduce the dose to one 750-milligram capsule per 30 pounds of body weight (or 1 gram of powder per 40 pounds of body weight). See more details in our shark cartilage page.
• Superoxide dismutase, also known as SOD, has also shown promise as an arthritis fighter. When 253 people with noninfectious joint inflammation were given a supplement containing SOD, 228 of them reported decreased pain and swelling, along with increased mobility of the afflicted joints.
• Vitamin E protects against muscle-wasting and is essential in cellular respiration, thus helping remove toxins. Vitamin E, like the nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs used for arthritis, inhibits the prostaglandins that play a role in pain. When 50 patients were given either 400 IU of vitamin E or a placebo, the vitamin E group reported greater pain relief and had to use less pain medication. In another study, 29 patients were given either vitamin E or a placebo for 10 days. Then the groups were switched without their knowledge, so that the vitamin E group was getting a placebo and the placebo group the vitamin E for an additional 10 days. The vitamin E produced "good" pain relief in 52 percent of the patients, compared to 1 percent for the placebo. Wheat germ, nuts and tomatoes are natural sources of Vitamin E.
• Choose a product containing mixed tocopherols and start by taking 200 international units daily, then gradually increase the dosage until you are taking 400 international units twice daily, once in the morning and again at bedtime.

Caution: If you have high blood pressure, limit your intake of supplemental vitamin E to a total of 400 international units daily. If you are taking an anticoagulant (blood thinner), consult your healthcare practitioner before taking supplemental vitamin E.

• Vitamin C is important for the synthesis of collagen and the repair of connective tissue.
• Vitamin B6: Many older people are found to be deficient in B6. The first symptoms of a deficiency include tingling, pain, and stiffness in the hands. Arthritis patients are recommended to take a supplement of B6 in addition to the B6 that's in your recommended daily antioxidant vitamin/mineral supplement.
• Vitamin B1 and B12: One study found an important relationship between doses of NSAIDs and vitamins B1 and B12. When administered to persons with arthritis these two B vitamins enhanced the effectiveness of the pain killing drugs, allowing for a lower dosage of the drugs. The effect was seen in as little as seven days. If you take drugs for pain relief, it would be worth taking vitamins B1 and B12 to see if they help you reduce your dosage.
• Vitamin A and the minerals zinc and copper are crucial to the formation of collagen and connective tissues. Be sure that your daily multivitamin contains at least the minimum RDA of these.