you cannot "win" or "lose" a debate you are not participating in, and i have steadfastly refused to participate in the moreless vs. trapper, beej et al. morass.
i occasionally have read a random post here and there and all i ever see is name calling and snide insults. there may very well be some good posts in and amongst there, but i don't have the patience to wade thru the s*** to get to those posts.