Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? 
barbarosa
10 y
9,497
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Hello,
I am a woman, 38, suffering from advanced Adrenal Fatigue Syndrom and Depression & anxiety for 6-7 years (not working since than). I take for some months lipo C, acid pantothenic, panthetine, etc and I see some very slow improvement in energy. Still, my big issue is insomnia. I don't sleep at all, and for 5 years I take Remeron (mirtazapine) to get some poor sleep and Cipralex (Lexapro) in the morning. Insomnia is not caused by insulin issues, I know this. My mind can't stop. It's a form of internal agitation manifesting like racing mind (24/24). One psychiatrist said I'm bipolar.
I've read some Chinese medicine explanation and this could be caused by liver stagnation and toxicity.
I am considering doing a Liver Flush but I'm scared because my very low energy (I don't have energy to buy or prepare my own food, I stay mostly in bed; 10' walk maximum).
So, do you have experience with advanced Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? Is the procedure exhausting? Could Epsome Salt cause problems in such a weak condition?
Any other thoughts are welcome.
Thank you very much!
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? 155216
10 y
8,778
This is a reply to # 2,138,378That is a heavy cocktail of meds, SNRI and an SSRI, which could contribute to a racing mind. Normally we find in AF, low cortisol causes high adrenaline, and this is the racing mind and body.
Chemically you can help treat it with beta blockers and melatonin at night (dont take melatonin with SNRI's or SSRI's), or you can treat yourself hollistically over time building your adrenal system, making it function better and thus allowing a flow of good level of cortisol. This dosent happen overnight, so the nutrients you are taking are a good choice combined with meditation, yoga etc but it can take a long time..however those meds are notorious for actually causing the problems you are having. My AF was not severe till I was put on Remeron, the destroyed the little sleep I got, and the Lexapro, although calming raises cortisol by stimulating the adrenal system, hence why there is a reduction of anxiety and more energy...however its only artifical. Tough call with the pharma meds, but being a lab rat for most meds over the past four years) I can definitely say that they are a big part of the problem but coming off them is not going to be an easy feet...and will take long time at slow reductions.
A liver cleanse could be beneficial, however those in late stage AF are made worse by the brutality of it - and being on pharma meds it is not safe to take liver detoxifing sbstances because it will effect the levels of the drug in your system and can put you into tolerance withdrawals.
Have you looked up tolerance and withdrawal for both Remeron and Lex?- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,441
This is a reply to # 2,138,379Thanks for your replay, especially that you used Remeron, too.
I tried to reduce both (separatly) Remeron and Lexapro. Without Remeron I couldn't sleep at all even that sleep with it is so bad (my natural sleep is gone). But I could try again, it's easier than stopping Lexapro, still.
With Lexapro is more complicated thant that (if it's possible). I started very slow and seemed to be ok. After about 1.5 months I was taking half the dose (the dose is 10mg). And anxiety started very very strong. The doctor said to come back to 1 pill and after that I had some strange reactions (I was on the street and couldn't remember tha last 5-10 min. That happend twice in the same day).
When I started Lex (5 years ago) it was a horrible experience but my energy was so low (I was mostly dead) that I was told to keep on. Finnaly my body got used to it, saddly.
My mind was racing before drogs. I could not sleep and think all the time what to do to save myself. I think this happend because I tried to cure my anxiety by psichoteray (4 years). That long thinking process moved all my body sensations into my head. I was analysing non-stop what happend in my life and why. I am not very far right now.
The therapy instead of reinforcing what was good in me put the focus on my problems and made them bigger.
Also, instead of respecting that anxiety I tried constantly (directed by therapist) to go beyond that fear. That put me in constant general anxiety (because I broke my own bounderies). And than AF started badly. I can't calm myself, can't secure myself.
Also I'm desperate because I did such a big mistake with my life (I constantly abandoned myself in the favor of others) and now I can't find the way back to my own self. I don't enjoy anythink and anybody. I feel hopeless.
Thank you for listening. - Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,472
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This is a reply to # 2,138,379By liver detoxing substances you mean Epsom Salt? I can try to do a flush without it (only with apple juice, some liver herbs, oil+lemon). Or oil+lemon combination is the problem?
Thanks- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? aerowallah
10 y
8,472
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This is a reply to # 2,138,627I get the racing mind off and on. keep in mind other causes of insomnia...
1. Low serotonin, melatonin
2. Low GABA
3. Low / high cortisol
4. High glutamate
5. High histamines
6. Detox
7. some combo
Probably would help narrow suspects thru a saliva test.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,319
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This is a reply to # 2,138,785Thanks for advice.
Saliva test for cortisol, right? Can I test something else? I know serotonin test are not accurate.
Here in Romania (Europe) they don't do any saliva test as far as I know.
Can I figure out the cause in other way?
One night I got sick because of eating something fat and I throw it up (including bile) and after that I drank a bitter tea and I felt that nice feeling of falling asleep naturally I didn't feel in years. My mind became quiet and I was centered in the body not in my head (like in the rest of the time).
Any suggestions?- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? #155216
10 y
8,815
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This is a reply to # 2,138,890The only problem with doing flushes with adrenal fatigue is that it can be an added stress on the road to recovery.
Some people are not ready to make that leap.
These people will never recover as long as the liver is not working.
I see you slept well after taking the bitters. People here are chasing magic adrenal/sleeping pills for years and years not making this connection despite myself and lots of other people saying this over and over and over and over and over...
Keep taking the bitters and/or fatty meals.
Now you are ready for kidney cleansing.
Come back in a few months and see the same people talking about ssri's, overstimulation of gaba receptors, bla bla, etc, while you are getting a good night's sleep and have basically told them how to do it right.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? 155216
10 y
8,448
Lugol’s Iodine Free S&H
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Cleanse the Liver in 9 Days
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This is a reply to # 2,138,893Be very careful listening to the advice from the troll above, he will put you in hopsital very fast.
Do not cleanse while taking medications that require liver enzymes to metabolize, you will put yourself into immediately withdrawals and stress your already drained system out. If you wish to do such a thing, then you need to withdraw off your medication extremely slowly over time, rebuild your basic reserve.
But whats best is if you look up Liver Flush on the AF forum only and see the tens of posts about people who severely crashed themselves from doing it. Better than just listening to the troll above, or myself, listen to many. - Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... #155216
10 y
8,570
Lugol’s Iodine Free S&H
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Cleanse the Liver in 9 Days
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This is a reply to # 2,138,893This is a response to mikey below, for some reason I can't reply.
First, just because I sleep well, have different opinions than you, and mainly recovered from the things you still suffer with does not mean I'm a troll.
She already stated that she had an inadvertent liver flush, while on the meds, and it was so awful that....
she got a good night's sleep.
With all of your inomnia problems I find it astounding that you would gloss over this and keep defending the medications.
The very best thing you can do while on meds is to stop them immediately and flush them out as fast as you can.
Thank me later, no charge.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush ... 155216
10 y
8,423
This is a reply to # 2,138,923look up pharmacological drugs, and the way they operate and manipulate many systems. I do not defend medications but you have to respect them because they are powerful. and my insomnia problems are not caused or made better by such medications because I for one have a real medical condition which effects sleep, not just a made up one ;) but enjoy your world buddy. Cant wait for the day when we finally get to meet up.
To the OP, what he is asking you to do is a 'cold turkey' detox, and one that is even more brutal that just 'stopping' the meds, he is asking you to immensly slam them out of your system. Please speak to your doctor, and ring the drug companies help lines before you listen - this is a highly dangerou thing to do and will cause you possibly years of suffering while your system restores. Dont take my word for it, look up protracted withdrawal syndrome (Lexapro especially) and then also read the thousands of stories of those that 'cold turkeyed' and are still suffering years down the line.
There is no MD or ND, healer, shamen, or in fact anyone in the healing field ,who will advise you to cold turkey meds especially after long term use. You will not find ANY nutritionist, natural doctor, chiropracter on the web etc saying this is a wise thing to do. Something to think about.
Please, withdraw off your meds slowly. Professor Ashton of Newcastle university actually wrote a good paper about withdrawals from SSRI's and SNRIs (along with benzodiazepaines) it would be good place to start. I would feel once your withdraw symptoms have lessened then it would be a good time to start gently cleaning up your liver with glutathione and milk thistle...whatever you do, do not feed tanked adrenals magnesium, its possibly the worse thing you can do.
btw, it can take up to 12 months being med free for your sleep patterns to normalize again, so dont be worried if its taking a while!- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... #155216
10 y
8,710
Lugol’s Iodine Free S&H
J.Crow’s® Lugol’s Iodine Solution. Restore lost reserves.
Epsom Salt Capsules
Hulda Clark Liver Cleanse
Cleanse the Liver in 9 Days
Feel great again!
This is a reply to # 2,138,927Well one thing is certain. Insomnia is not caused by a lack of pharmaceutical drugs.
People withdraw cold turkey from everything under the sun. My good friend went cold turkey off celexa so I know it can be done. The OP did an ad hoc Liver Flush and slept well. Why is that so hard for you to get? Are you somehow opposed to having a clean liver?
I have friends who withdrew cold turkey from H. It's mind over matter and it then it's over.
So the OP is taking meds for sleeping problems. The problem goes away from one liver expulsion and now you are willfully ignoring this and recommending to 'taper slowly over 12 months'. I could maybe maybe possibly see your point if she hadn't pointed out the relation between her sleeping well and the liver flush. But you are so myopic that all you can do is try to drag people down into your (proven-not-to-work) gaba receptor theories and endless tapering of poison that does not belong in a human body.
It's too dangerous to actually take notice of something that actually worked for her, pursue it and then probably have her get even more healthy? Best to keep poisoning the system?
If I wanted to devote time and energy to useless endeavors like learning which pharmaceutical medication is most toxic, for sure I am capable. I don't really see the point you're trying to make here. Have you somehow elevated yourself? When your med protocol starts working out then we can talk, but so far you bring nothing to the table as far as helping people. If you're here for support, that's fine, just don't puff up like you know anything whatsoever about anything relevant to natural health.
Reminding the op that I had this problem and solved it with some diet changes, liver flushes, and parasites cleansing.
I hope you can think clearly enough to see through the b.s. here and take notice that your body self-corrected relatively easily and what you need to do is milk that puppy more, not retreat and keep poisoning yourself.
Please do read my history and read other people's history. Take note that my problem is solved, and the person who is trying to persuade you into the path of sickness and addiction is still flapping in the breeze. There are scores of other people on curezone who have done amazing things with Liver Flushes and the other cleansing protocols.
I will add that on curezone it is not the status quo to keep people on medications. There are a sellect few people who have coopted some forums due to their own frustration at not being healed. I understand the frustration, but it is not an excuse to lead others down the path of misery.
Cleaning your liver out is an absolute must to achieve health.
When this is done your adrenals will take leaps and bounds if they are not already healed by then.
Don't take my word for it, go talk to the countless other people who are having great success in the Liver Flush Forum , Natural healing forum, any forum where people do coffee enemas, parasite cleansing, nutritional balancing forum, Iodine forum, Candida Forum s. You will see very quickly that my suggestions are the norm and the very few people who are STILL QUITE SICK THEMSELVES don't know anything about anything. Extra care must be taken with adrenal fatigue, but all the same general health principles apply.
When I was learning about natural health my inclination was to keep my mouth shut and ears open in the hopes that I might learn something useful. It took a while but eventually I learned what I needed to to solve my problems. It seems that younger people today are somehow immune to this and they were born knowing everything about everything. Not coincidentally, they are medicated to the hilt, living with mommy, and have settled for below average life quality.
-cheers
p.s.glutathione and milk thistle are not liver cleansers.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... 155216
10 y
8,605
This is a reply to # 2,138,962I have never once commented that aiding a deotxification on ones liver is a bad thing, but you seem to think that it is suitable for people with extreme AF, and its not. As you want to through hypothetical 'friends' into the mix, well i have two friends who ended up in hospital after doing Liver Flushes and I know MANY more.
A detox from optiates such as heroin is actually the most short recovery, and it is well documented , hell for weeks, then normality, a very different kettle of fish to anti depressants and anti anxiety pills.
All these people you talk of great success there are equal amounts without success and worsening of their condition.
And as you have little understanding of pharmacology, we are not dealing with gaba receptors here, we are dealing with seretonin and histamine receptors, not to mention a few others Remeron and Lexapro target. Stop trying to bring your gaba theories into everything, gaba related to benzodiazepain medication. And there are many on the 'surviving anti-depressants' board, and 'benzo buddies' who have been brutalised by liver and parasite cleansing. So as you have no direct experience of people suffering from pharma abuse....
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... 155216
10 y
8,605
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,247
This is a reply to # 2,138,927Sorry, what about magnesium? I should not take it? Because I do for some time.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... #155216
10 y
8,710
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush ... 155216
10 y
8,423
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? 155216
10 y
8,448
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? #155216
10 y
8,815
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? UserX
10 y
7,839
This is a reply to # 2,138,785What you're talking about is an imbalance in nutrients and lack of the B vitamins that will activate your amino acids. GABA is an amino acid that is lost by stress. Also L ornithine and citruline is lost by parasitic infestations. Use 5HTP,
B6, L ornithine, GABA, taurine, and DLPA as a replacement for the drugs. Those are natural calmers and natural antidepressants. Almost 100% of people now have parasites that rob them of their nutrients and they don't have a clue that it's the cause of many of their problems. They attach to your colon and liver and secrete an anesthetizing agent and you don't know they're there. Kill them with a good anti-parasitic and stay on it until you got your liver and colon cleaned out and don't see any more parasites. Drugs cause low seratonin and GABA levels in your digestive tract. Your digestive tract is your second brain. Get off the,if you're on them and replace them with what the body has in it naturally that the drugs fail to do. The drugs WILL screw your body and mind up bad, destroy tissue and eventually cause cancer. Your HGH and opposing cortisol is unbalanced because of lack of sleep and your sleep patterns are screwed up, too. Drugs won't fix it. Histamines are telling you you have some kind of allergy and that points right back to congested, sick liver with parasites and stones in it. Been all through this for years, myself, and had to do it all in order to recover.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,319
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? Zachary
10 y
7,921
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? aerowallah
10 y
8,472
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? barbarosa
10 y
8,441
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush? #155216
10 y
8,595
This is a reply to # 2,138,378First off, do not take advice from anyone who has not actually done a liver flush.
Yes, the Epsom Salts can be draining, especially with adrenal fatigue. So make sure that you don't get dehydrated.
From your post below it seems like you have already answered your own questions.
I would stay with the bitters now since they are working.
A proper flush will be similar to what you experienced, just more intense.
There are different strategies for dealing with liver congestion with adrenal fatigue. Some people will tell you that you must heal the adrenals first and then cleanse the liver. Some people will say the opposite. I can't say which one is right for you. For me, I absolutely had to address the liver before my adrenals started to heal.
A lot of people talk about the liver as if it is a minor organ with little relation to adrenal fatigue. This is very far off from reality. The liver is intimately involved with the entire metabolism, and doubly so for any sort of toxicity related illness.
This forum has somewhat degraded due to an influx of people who are not oriented around natural health. I think almost everyone that has actually done a series of flushes will report a better sense of well-being. Those unfamiliar are not qualified to voice a single peep. Have a look at the survey results, it is a resounding success.
Some people were also afraid to do coffee enemas, but they realized those concerns were unfounded and experienced a sense of well-being as well. I am not advocating nutritional balancing, but those people are at least a bit more educated about natural health and a great many of them are recovering; some have fully recovered.
ALWAYS qualify who you are getting advice from. Is it someone who is healed or someone still struggling.
Good luck!
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... Faith110
10 y
8,663
This is a reply to # 2,138,378You want to hear from someone who has done liver flushes...well here I am. I've done MULTIPLE flushes, and yes, I am one of those people who ended up in the hospital over it.
To the OP, Liver Flushes are an EXTREMELY bad idea when you're in advanced stages of AF! Please heed this warning and save yourself a boatload of suffering. A liver detox is not bad, as the liver is extremely important to metabolism, but when in sever AF metabolism as a whole is slowed and the liver cannot handle the flush. Trust me, I've been there. When I first became ill the liver was one of the first things I addressed. I had a lot of knowledge on this subject because my mother cured herself of Hep C on natural protocols- but she did not have AF when she did this. Big difference. I began doing flushes and coffee enemas for about a month, steadily getting worse and worse, and bought myself a ticket to the ER where I was admitted for a week and had to be loaded up with sodium IVs to stabilize. The time for liver cleanse is later on in recovery when the body can handle it. Until then let your body go at its own pace. Do not force anything. If you want to do something very gentle, I suggest an activated charcoal poultice over the liver. I was doing this for quite some time and they seemed to help.
Anyone who knows me will tell you that I despise pharma meds. I think they are awful and I've seen them poison and damage plenty of people. I don't know much about pharmacology, but what I do know is that any sudden and violent effort to the body- whether its quitting a med cold turkey, purging the body with flushes and cleanses, drastic dietary changes, or anything else of that sort- when one has AF is a recipe for disaster.
In the past, before AF, I did plenty of fasts, juice cleanses, liver flushes, colonics...and I had no problem handling them. After AF these protocols which had previously been tolerated without an issue caused me to enter the 7 circles of hell. So please, use caution!
Mikey might still be ill, but he is very very knowledgeable about pharma meds. I can personally attest to this, as I have witnessed first hand the damage that was done to him over an MDs "quit cold turkey" advice. Also Mikey is not on any pharmas, he is recovering from the damage they originally did to him. Listen to him on this matter. He really knows what he is talking about.
I am 90% recovered from AF. Look back on my posts and you will see how severely ill I was, and you'll know my story.
Best of luck to you in your healing :)- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... #155216
10 y
8,651
This is a reply to # 2,139,060Did you read my post? or the op's post?
There have been a few people in the Liver Flush Forum who did not do well on them. No one has ever said it works all the time. What I did say is that you need to get the liver working properly to be healthy. I also said that there are different viewpoints on when to approach this.
Realize too that people will have different viewpoints than you. This does not constitute trolling. Calling someone a troll when they present a well thought-out intelligent post that can help someone may in fact constitute trolling.
I see that you have made progress and that's great. I'm not here to steal anyone's thunder as long as they are doing what works.
If I wanted to be an arse like you guys I could say something like 'eating 20 pounds of potatoes per week gave me adult onset diabetes and sent me to the hospital', which I'm sure has happened to someone somewhere in the world. It proves nothing, just like your single experience with Liver Flushes proves nothing at all. other than the fact that you are myopic and can't conceive that something that didn't work out for you could possibly be good for someone else.
I would ask what the specific procedure you used for the flushes was.
Back to the OP, who clearly stated that after an ad hoc flush (fatty meal and bitters), she had a dramatic improvement in sleep. And now you are warning her against what exactly?
There are ways to counteract the negative side effects of the flush by loading up on electrolytes, changing the magnesium formulation, or some people can forego the magnesium altogether, it's an individual thing.
So yes, I will acknowledge that the Liver Flushes are not good for everyone all the time. I have also said many times now that with adrenal fatigue extra care must be taken with them.
There was one lady who had to have surgery, but it was not at the ER, her gall bladder was just damaged and not working from lyme disease. She at least gave it a shot and likely it would have had to come out anyway.
My advice to the OP was to stay with what works, namely fatty meals and bitters.
Now I'll be an arse since you started up trouble. Personally I think you have an eating disorder. You have already stated as such, and I think eating huge amounts of potatoes like that is just abnormal, maybe like getting a Sugar high. On top of that you're telling very sick people to load up on fried foods. This is very irresponsible at best as no one in the health fields would agree that this is healthy. I hope I'm wrong but it looks like you have traded one problem for another. Time will tell.
No, you are not an authority on liver health because of your single experience with liver flushes. There are some very smart people in the Liver Flush Forum who I consider much more trustworthy. Unyquity on the natural health forum has helped a few dozen people along with adrenal fatigue by doing flushes and she has some excellent in-depth posts on how to approach things.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... Faith110
10 y
8,450
This is a reply to # 2,139,108Yes, I did read your post recommending the OP to violently shock her body by quitting SSRIs cold turkey and follow that up with a series of liver purges to add insult to injury. I got that.
I am completely open to considering the viewpoints of others, even if they don't agree with mine. But when one comes in with a know it all attitude, Goes off half-cocked on the people who have been sharing their journey and knowledge (from personal experience, not just parroting "healers" and MDs) on this forum for quite some time, and refuses to back up their claims with a REAL story of their own I have a problem with it.
Did you read my post? I was not badmouthing liver flushes. In fact, they were one of the protocols that helped my mother recover from Hep C. I am simply warning the OP about flushing while in a very fragile state like AF. Those of us who actually HAVE AF completely understand how paradoxical the majority of healing protocols can be to us, while they remain beneficial to others. I've lived through this for two years and am still stumbling along with it. But if you really ever truly had AF you would know exactly what I mean..oh yeah, that's right....you don't!
I never claimed to be an authority on Liver Flushes or any other detox protocols. I am simply an individual who has gone through a heck of a lot of suffering and worlds of pain to get to where I am today. I do my best to help others and give them advice BASED ON MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in hopes that I can save them a boatload of suffering. I would have given my back teeth to have someone actually give me this kind of advice in the first year of my illness. Instead, all I got were people like you, telling me to subject myself to torturous diets and violent detoxes and purges that left me in a worsened state than I had originally begun with.
I've been to Uniquity's forum and I do have a great deal of respect for her knowledge and what she does. She has been helpful to me in the past, and I would not insult her nor drag her into a silly debate with you.
And if something that the OP did helped her, then I think that's wonderful and she should keep doing it. We are all our own unique blueprint and what works in our own individual cases is great. If she is one of the few people with AF who actually did not have a bad reaction to a liver cleanse then good for her! Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then :)
And just to clarify, I do not eat "20 pounds of potatoes" a day. I don't even eat fried foods every day. It's my true comfort food, but I have more sense than to eat it in that kind of excess. Fried foods aren't the devil, they are actually pretty warming to the metabolism when eaten in moderation, and when prepared with high quality ingredients. After a meal of fried chicken and mashed potatoes, my hands and feet will actually be warm as opposed to their usual freezing cold state.
I love potato chips, but I do not LIVE on them. If you had even a small bit of a sense of humor, you would see that most of the conversations I have with others about my "Kettle chip diet" is a big joke (hence my avatar). Lighten up. You might make more friends :)
The humble potato is actually one of nature's most complete foods. During the famines the Irish lived off of them, and I did too for a few months when my illness was at its worst. They brought me back to life, and I will continue to recommend them.
You are right, I do have an eating disorder. It's called MAST CELL ACTIVATION SYNDROME. You really should look it up. It's an awful condition that severely limits the foods that a person can eat. It's like living with a minefield in your gut that could trigger at any moment. When the only food that your body will accept without going into anaphylactic shock is a potato, you tell me how much of them you eat!
Anyway, I've had enough of this. It's always going to be the same old story with you...I just hope that the person who posted this thread originally used extreme caution if they decided to do a flush (my objective for posting on this thread originally). I'm off to go get high on some taters. Ta ta for now.
- Re: Adrenal Fatigue and liver flush?... 155216
10 y
8,346
This is a reply to # 2,139,297My last reply was removed by the Webmaster because it catagorically exposed this man as a deceitful, hurtful person who is intent on damaging people and causing distress to people on not only the AF forum but also the entirity of Curezone.
It outlined his attempt at spin doctoring his words (which he lacks the intelligence to do it correctly) but others will of seen it, and they know exactly who this person is. Everytime he opens his mouth, his words do more damage to himself than anyone else, its quite amusing.
This is the type of man we are dealing with Faith, its actually quite laughable.
//www.curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=2139111
It looks like he is the brother of Natway, or indeed Natways alter ego, they are the same person.
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