>>"--The condition and level of compromise/congestion of all aspects of all organs/systems that impact digestion, as well as the entire alimentary canal must be taken into account (as well as the levels, balance & lack of intestinal microbiota). A conclusion such as: "I feel better when I eat meat/dairy, hence I know this is right for me" from a person whose organs of digestion and assimilation are compromised, doesn't indicate a "right" diet. Rather, it indicates that their particular selection of foods is what best bandaids or eliminates their symptoms of compromise."<<

I am not so sure. For instance if we take a chronically sick animal who has been fed grains since weaning that should be eating grass... and then pasture them, without medication or anything else, they get well. That being said, one must remove themselves from *processed* foods, and eliminate or minimize intakes of sugars to hope for the kind of progress some of us have seen. In other words, even if one does feel the need to cleanse, flush, etc., it is most beneficial to eat the foods best for you... be that diet more carbohydrate rich, mixed, or protein rich.

>>"Haven't we YET learned from allopathic medicine/science that bandaiding, squelching, forcing the body to yield different "numbers & levels" and disregarding symptoms (by using drugs, supplements, herbs OR diet) is very similar to putting a piece of duct tape over an oil light? Symptoms are our bodies way of telling us to CHANGE SOMETHING!"<<

Nearly all symptoms are an indication of a nutrient imbalance or deficiency that is in large part for an obligatory omnivore, where they are unable to convert plant based nutrients properly... a plant based diet could make some issues worse for these folks... UNLESS, it is carefully planned with great attention to high protein, no sugars\grains, or other simple carbohydrates and includes animal fats with the meals to assist them in the conversions.

>>"--Blood type, metabolism type, genetic 'codes', what our ancestors ate hundreds of years ago, etc. What level of importance are those compared to liver compromise (lack of essential bile), dysbiosis, kidney compromise (inability to regulate eletrolytes/minerals) and build-ups of mucous that prevent assimilation of nutrition (not to mention all the other significant organs, systems, fluids and their impact on digestion & assimilation)"<<

Eating incorrectly for your type... is what causes liver compromise to begin with... for a carb type, that may mean eating too much meat... for a obligatory omnivore, that may mean eating too many carbs...

In either case, I have read research that indicates fatty liver can develop... this in two different people eating wrong for their *type*. There are many, many papers on vegetarians developing fatty livers...

This could be exacerbated in either case if either one of these *types* are eating processed foods, especially those with things like corn syrup added, etc.

The correction for the liver in either case, would then be to have them eating as they should according to their ancestral roots, and *type*.

Throw in a few herbs for the liver, some lemon in your water, etc. and one should recover unless they are in dire straights to begin with.

Then the answer is of course a bit more extreme.

>>"--The efficacy & success of healers that addressed 'the above' while utilizing a strict vegan diet (or extremely limited meat/dairy). Max Gerson, Johanna Brant, John Christopher, Paavo Airola, et al, have some of the highest cure rates for the most extreme diseases."<<

Other less well known healers have had success with raw meat, and raw dairy. Many hospitals, prior to the 1930's used raw milk for many issues... that raw milk came from very high end, pastuered dairy operations... My grandfather worked for one in the 1920's - the 1930's.

Perhaps their cure rates (the raw dairy\meat healers), along with the *healers* you mention, would all have been even better if they understood the, sometimes subtle, differences in the dietary needs for some of their patients.

Remember too, we were beginning to deal with a very transient population... people moving to other geographical locations, from farm and rural to city, etc. All of these things would shock the system to one degree or another.

You are on top of these healer's works... is there a hard source for the blood types of their patients along with the cure rate within each group?

>>"--Other than the pesticides and agri-chemicals used in farming/ranching (say, up through the 1950's), virtually all animals raised for slaughter & sale were exposed to only a miniscule amount of chemical poisons, no GMOs, and they were virtually ALL "free ranged" and grass fed. Raw milk was the ONLY milk available for a long time in certain locations."<<

I have studied this quite a bit... *Concentrated Feeding Operations*, or, CFOs, began in 1813 within the U.S for both dairy and meat cattle, primarily, in and around U.S. cities, and eventually spilled into the larger suburbs, etc. as time progressed. These CFOs, used the nutrient poor mash from the alcohol production industries to feed them... it is literally when the first *swill*, or very poor milk began to make its way to the consumer... and related illnesses began to occur.

By the way... wikipedia is quite wrong on this in their *feedlot* history section...

These CFOs also began to feed the animals grains, and waste material from grain harvests. They were not all free range animals by a long shot. In addition, Antibiotic use began in earnest in the 1940's... and many people's systems were shocked immediately having never eaten such crap (even though they did not know it) before.




Women would purposefully look for milk (it was all raw) with the most cream to indicate the healthiest milks... and knew that milk with little to no cream was crap... so, in 1899 homogenization was *invented* to *disguise* the bad milk from the good milk, and by 1919 it was beginning to be sold commercially (I believe Connecticut first) out of these *swill* operations. Homogenization came before the pasteurization of milk because it mixed the milk from many dairies, both the crap, and the better milk, together, and made it all the same... so the consumer could no longer tell the difference between good healthy milk, and the swill.

Some believe that the adulteration of the milk fats, by homogenization, is much worse than pasteurization for our health. But both processes served a few *commercial* purposes (read profit increasing) including extending the shelf life of a *poor* product.

In other words, around the turn of the 19th into the 20th century, most cities and their suburbs, had very poor quality milk.

The rally cries for the pasteurization of milk was a political issue that began in earnest about 1910... and pasteurized milk in most larger metro areas, co-existed with raw milk found in more rural locations until about 1940, when after the war, the lies, and propaganda machine rolled out and we ended up with the current state of things.

Again, some people's systems were *shocked* with the processed milk products... and surprise, surprise, people got sick... quickly from these processed products.

>>"BUT, the great & successful healers above devised these vegan/juicing protocols in the 1910's-1940's. Hence we know they had different issues with meat/dairy than are being discussed and considered in this thread."<<

Dependent upon where their patients came from, their dietary habits before getting *sick*, and the like... as feedlot operations, homogenization, pasteurization, and drug use in cattle had already begun in many places.

If you have this sort of patient information, and if anyone does, I would imagine you do, I would be most interested in reviewing it.

>>"--Since these great pioneers successfully and safely healed so many people (at such incredible success percentages) of virtually every disease known using a vegan (or semi-vegan) diet at the core of their protocols (and they did it without taking into consideration blood types, metabolism types and what someone's great-great-great grandmother ate). Then their diets (and the protocols that SUPPORT that diet), and the resulting healings provide solid empirical evidence that certainly require FAR more consideration than what has been considered in this thread."<<

The success rate does deserve further study... and I would like to review patient history, blood type, and diet *before* they sought treatment if the data exists. Without that, it is hard to come to any solid conclusions.

>>"--Of course one would have to be crazy to think our bodies don't require protein. But for those that believe "animal flesh protein" is somehow superior...how does that compare with say, the 25-40% protein by weight provided by bee pollen that comes complete with EVERY amino acid?"<<

No one is saying that *animal protein* is superior for everyone... what is being stated is that *some* people cannot *convert* plant based nutrients into the form required for metabolic use in mammals\humans. These folks are obligatory omnivores... period. For these folks, a vegan\vegetarian diet, could make matters worse... and it is likely why some people abandon these healing methods. Whole food juicing for these folks would provide the needed fiber and such to help slow down the *fuel burning* process.

These are the very folks Mercola is working with on totally raw food diets including raw, free range meats... they MUST eat raw in order to heal, however, they *require* animal flesh due to their body's being unable to convert plant based nutrition adequately... Mercola seems to be having great success with this. As an aside, Mercola reiterated this at David Wolfe's longevity conference, with David standing next to him nodding his head in agreement.

>>"In closing, the nutritional levels of every 'bite of anything' we put in our mouth is substantially lower than ever before on the planet (just another reason why juicing, superfoods and things like bee pollen are so integral). We must now WORK to ensure our body is receiving even close to the amount of nutrition a typical human received 100 years ago. But there are far more issues & variables to be considered about diet than are being considered here...so I just wanted to throw those above into the discussion (likely, with grammatical and typographical errors :::grin:::)."<<

I certainly agree with most of that... though with juicing, I believe whole plant juicing to be of greater benefit than the juices alone due to the plant Sugar issues, at the very least for a protein type... Thanks for throwing all that in... I appreciate it.

grz-