Now onto Liver Flushes .. where do the ideas of liver flushes come from and who invented it? Is it this Andreas Moritz guy?
No, the "liver flushes" have been around for a very long time, and probably well before Moritz was even born. This is part of the problem. The "flushes" came in to existence long before modern analysis techniques. So people mistook these saponified olive oil and sterol-cholesterol stones for real gallstones. Analysis of these stones have shown that they are not real gallstones though. But some people will never believe the evidence, thus the debate.
HV, as you said the oil causes the gallbladder to contract. At the least wouldn't this show some benefit in moving bile and perhaps causing "draining" of the liver? (Similar to chinese draining and dredge liver formulas) The stones, I think have been explained.
I do recommend small amounts of oil with meals in my posts explaining the "liver flush" myth. The oil does help prevent stagnation of the bile, but it does not flush the liver. If people really want to cleanse the liver then I recommend bitters, which do cause the liver to flush when they stimulate the vagus nerve.
Hveragerthi, I'm very curious as in all my life I have never seen anything in my stools that represents little balled up green anything in many irregular shapes and sizes except via "liver" flushing.
Your position is that there is no way that these stones, balls, whatever are from the GB or liver. Fine then it's a simple chemical reaction. I just want to know as many others having lived decades can attest that the appearance of anything resembling any irregular shapes has simply never occurred unless ingesting liver flush ingredients.
And why is that. Small real gallstones can pass on their own. The fact that you only see them when you use the liver flush ingredients tells us that the "stones" are being formed from the ingredients, not the body.
So presumably we've all ingested enough chemicals in our food and water to create many reactions and our eliminations are almost always consistent.
See above. Also keep in mind that with the "flushes" that you are ingesting a large amount of sterol rich olive oil. More that you would normally in your diet. So you are supplying a high level of sterols and stimulating the release of cholesterol-laden bile. When they contact each other the sterols bind the cholesterol forming the so called "stones".
So tell us what to take besides liver flushing ingredients to create these little balls or stones consistently and I'm sure you'd have many lab rats willing to try. After all I agree why waste time if something doesn't work.
Why would you want to create them? They are not serving any real purpose other than preventing the reabsorption of the cholesterol. There are all sorts of sterol sources for this. But the olive oil does not only supply the sterols but again also stimulates the bile release.
Bottom line it really is that simple to prove if LF doesn't work. I just want a non-LF ingredient formula to cause said reaction within 12 hours give or take an hour, not more discussion.
If you really want to get rid of real gallstones I recommend bitters, lecithin granules and increased fiber intake. This will not only dissolve real gallstones but will also help to prevent their formation.
Hv, after reading several pages of posts on liver/gallbladder flushes, I decided to do one for myself, to see if this flush would produce 'stones'. I know from a very recent ultrasound, that I do not have any gall stones, or liver stones , so it was safe to try this flush.
The morning after the flush, I passed what could be described as 1-2 cmgreenish blobs, that looked just like what people have posted on the LFforum. There were about a dozen of these, also a few brownish coloured blobs, of the same size and appearance.
These 'stones' also bore no resemblance to any gall stones that I have seen in the gallbladders of patients I have examined during post mortem. The liver and gallbladder are always examined during a post mortem.
From this experiment, I can conclude to my own satisfaction that these 'stones', are produced by ingesting the LF ingredients, and the action of these ingredients with the bile produced by the gallbladder, in the bowel. I am also satisfied that these 'stones' are not gall stones or liver stones.
Thanks for posting your results. I know there will still not believe it no matter how much evidence is presented, but there will be some at least that will listen to the evidence and possibly save themselves from a trip to the emergency room because they lodged a real stone in their bile ducts.
Some of the evidence:
-These "stones" float, real gallstones sink.
-Many of these stones people have posted photos of are in excess of 25mm. But even with dilation of the bile ducts with magnesium the maximum the ducts will expand is about 2mm. Therefore it would be impossible for those to have come out of the gallbladder.
-People who have had these "stones" analyzed by a real lab have reported that they are not real gallstones.
-People have reported expelling literally cups of these "stones". Problem is that unless they are aliens from some other planet their gallbladders are not large enough to hold that quantity of real gallstones.
1. I looked at Andreas Moritz ' book
First of all in my opinion Moritz has zero credibility since he apparently does not understand how the body works. Here are some examples of his myths being exposed:
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1567784
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1568425
And I am not alone in the belief that Moritz does not know what he is talking about:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/02/andreas_moritz_legal_intimidation_i...
about liver flushing where he replies to the claim that these little round balls were formed from the action of the flush ingredients. I thought his arguments were persuasive. One thing that struck me was his statement that after some point the flushes no longer produced any of the little round balls.
I have addressed these points previously in the links above. But in short the answer is that their formation in the intestines is dependent on the ingredients needed to form them. These include sufficient bile and sufficient cholesterol. These can be depleted for a number of reasons including doing frequent "flushes".
Also, I do believe him when he says that his many health challenges ceased after he was free of "stones".
Being free of "stones" produced in the intestines from saponification and binding of cholesterol cleared up his health issues how? I have heard people claim that the "flushes" cleared up their allergies. But since allergies have NOTHING to do with the gallbladder how is this possible? As I have pointed out in the past chemotherapy can make a cancer patient feel better from shrinking a tumor. But this does not mean they are cured, and this does not make the chemotherapy safe or effective. So a claim of being cured is far from proof of being cured especially when gallbladder function has NOTHING to do with virtually all diseases.
2. I would ask you why some people don't discharge anything after a flush whereas some others do? Don't we all have the same body chemistry and body parts? Why will one individual produce round thingies and others not after a flush?
Answered above. It is all dependent on all the materials needed to form the "stones" in the intestines being present.
3. Also, we had an exchange a few weeks ago where you don't explain why the liver flush would cause me to discharge what you have decided are calcium oxalate stones rather than real gallstones. Where are these calcium oxalate stones being formed? I've looked up & down and everywhere I read they say that such stones are formed in the kidney and nowhere else.
You need to learn how to research better:
http://www.advances-in-medicine.com/2008/08/extraintestinal-complications-cro...
"Fat malabsorption also increases the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones. Normally dietary oxalate binds to calcium within the lumen of the small intestine and is excreted as insoluble calcium oxalate in the feces. With fat malabsorption, calcium binds to long-chain fatty acids rather than oxalate. Free oxalate is then hyperabsorbed from the colon and excreted in the urine (enteric hyperoxaluria). "
If you really think about it calcium oxalate is insoluble. So calcium oxalate formed in the digestive system is not going to absorb unless broken down first in to free oxalate. By the way the breakdown of excess vitamin C in the body also leads to oxalate formation, which can contribute to calcium oxalate kidney stones. So it is not all from dietary absorption of oxalic acid, which is minimal to begin with.
4. There are things called Pseudoliths. Also known as "Fake stones," they are sludge-like gallbladder secretions that act like a stone. (info taken from wikipedia) "Act like a stone" is the important thing. Personally, I don't care that much if what I have discharged is real or pseudo. They just should not be there.
But what people are discharging is coming from the intestines where they formed, not from the gallbladder. This is why these "stones" lack the properties of real gallstones and when analyzed by a lab they are found not to be real gallstones.
4. It's true that sometimes people defend some health procedure tooth and nail when there is no good reason to do so. However, I would say the same thing about established orthodox medical procedures, particularly standard cancer treatments, and not only unproven alternatives.