Hi Mighty,

there are many variables in weightloss while fasting such as energy/calorific expenditure in physical activity or whether resting, or ones mental state as in anxiety/emotional worries and so on, but the basal metabolic rate is generally lowered by one-fourth to two-fifths in an effort by the body to conserve food reserves.
Nothingbetter also has a valid point concerning water-losses and the retention of water via sodium intake and the loss of weight while fasting.

We should bear in mind that the body has switched over from its normal fuel supply of glucose to that of fat-burning in ketosis, and within a matter of days from the outset.
Protein is conserved and is minimized by the body as a fuel supply.

So in answer to your question: "would not fat-loss in a fast be dictated by the energy needs expressed by the body in the form of "basal metabolism"?

The answer is yes, but a lowered state of metabolism will produce less weightloss. Plus the other variables mentioned above, and why the lowered metabolic rate initiates LESS weightloss in the conservation of food reserves.


SHELTON.
"Although we usually say that a faster loses about a pound a day, the loss of weight varies greatly, depending on a number of circumstances. Fat subjects lose more rapidly than lean ones. The more physically active one is, the more rapidly one loses weight. The longer the fast progresses, the less rapid is the loss of weight. Losses of five or six pounds a day for the first two or three days are often recorded. But these losses are not losses of flesh. Most of this apparent loss is due to the emptying of the alimentary canal of several pounds of food and feces which is not replaced by more food".

AND......
"The weight lost by fat patients in the early days of a fast is astounding. I have seen losses of five and six pounds a day for the first few days. A woman who fasted in the Health School in January and February of 1950 lost twenty-five pounds in the first two weeks. As before indicated, rapid loss of weight in a fast indicates a poor condition of the tissues. It has been repeatedly noticed that fat individuals who are soft and flabby lose more rapidly than those whose fat is firm and solid. As the fast progresses, the rate of loss decreases in fat patients. Skinny patients commonly lose slowly from the beginning, but one whose tissues are in very poor condition may lose very rapidly at the outset".
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch17.htm



Regarding any losses in muscle-tissue during a fast...........

SHELTON.
"The loss of weight during a fast does not represent a loss of vital tissue, but of surplus nutriment, waste, fat, etc. It is just so many pounds of "disease" that one loses. The muscles, for example, decrease in size. But this is due to a decrease in the amount of fat in them, and to a decrease in the size of their cells. There is no actual lessening of the number of muscle cells during the ordinary fast".
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch17.htm


"during the fast the tissues do not all waste at an equal rate; those that are not essential are utilized most rapidly, those least essential less rapidly and those most essential not at all at first and only slowly at the last. Nature always favors the most vital organs. The fat disappears first, and then the other tissues in the inverse order of their usefulness. The essential tissues obtain their nourishment from the less essential, by enzymatic action, a process which has been termed autolysis".

Dr JOEL FUHRMAN MD.......
Water-only-fasting then allows the body to enter a special protein-sparing ketogenic state after about 3 days, which preserves muscle-mass and consumes primarily fat tissues. However, if anyone eats any carbohydrate-calories whatsoever (juices), your body does not enter this protein sparing state, and it feeds primarily off your muscle-mass rather than fat stores. This is just ONE reason I mostly do not encourage juice-fasting.

FUHRMAN again..............
"A special adaptation occurs in the fasting state whereby the brain can fuel itself with ketones instead of glucose. By the third day of a total fast, the liver starts generating a large quantity of ketones from the body's fat stores. As the level of ketones rises in the bloodstream, the brain and other organs begin to use these ketones as their major fuel, thus greatly diminishing the utilization of glucose by the body. This significantly limits muscle wasting. These keto-acids are utilized for fuel primarily by the brain, muscle tissue, and the heart.
This production of ketones, called ketosis, develops within 48 hours in females and 72 hours in males, and muscle wasting at this time decreases to very low levels. This is known as protein sparing.
Thus, the human organism responds to the fasting state by attempting to maximally conserve its muscle and lean body tissue.
With severely restrictive diets, like juice fasts, the body does lose weight, but the brain and other organs do not subsist mainly on ketones. Therefore, proportionately to weight lost, juice fasts and severely restrictive diets cause us to lose more lean body tissue and less fatty tissue than do total fasts..................
in FASTING AND EATING FOR HEALTH.
****************************************************


So in summary.
It was Sheltons opinion that we do not lose any muscle tissue/cells, only the fat within those tissues, and where the muscles will decrease in size.
This would be consistent with any losses to the Heart-muscle: does the body "feed" from the Heart during a fast? and if so would result in heart-muscle-damage, as opposed to its repair and rejuvenation which actually takes place.

In contrast, feeding from the "vital tissues" while water-only-fasting as in from the Heart, Liver, pancreas, kidneys, and so on, only occurs after reaching the starvation period, and when the fasting state has ended.

This could be a matter for discussion perhaps, and where the exact figures/losses have never been of real interest to me, unless someone else can enlighten us.

Sorry for the long post.

Chrisb1.

Mighty,
it may be interesting to know that the human body is approx' 61.8 percent water by weight. Protein accounts for 16.6 percent; fat, 14.9 percent; and nitrogen, 3.3 percent of human body weight. Other elements constitute smaller percentages of body weight.

Source: Rovin, Jeff. Laws of Order, p. 108.

Chrisb1.

While gaining 20 lbs of tissue in two weeks seems implausible, carrying around 20-24 lbs of excess water weight also seems implausible - unless one is extraordinarily obese which you clearly are not.

I wonder what your definition of "eating lightly" is - considering that that after an extended fast, one's metabolism will be dramatically slowed down for quiet some time. This makes it very easy to gain weight. What would count as a calorie restricted diet normally might be a binge to someone who just fasted for several weeks or more.

I've heard a lot of places (though I don't have a quick citation) that a highly restricted diet (such as a raw diet, juice diet, etc) should be done through different stages of refeeding lasting the same length as the fast or longer. Lots of people also report being able to keep the weight off or only gaining 3-6 lbs after a water fast, following a highly restricted diet. I've never heard of anyone gaining 24 lbs in 2 weeks before.

Chrisb1, I was just trying to tell menina that it will take some time for her blood Sugar and insulin levels to go down, if she has insulin resistance.

Until this happens, her blood sugar, insulin AND ketones levels will be high. This causes a lot of weird symptoms, including lack of weight loss and fatigue. If she persists, it will all go away.

Please let me know if this is a bad assessment of what is going on, because the same thing has happened to me.

Thanks
NoSpoon