Dear Hveragerthi,

I think you are mistaking my post for an attack on natural medicine, when in fact all I was stating was that herbs can be as powerful if not more powerful than pharmaceutical drugs, and that caution must be taken when using herbs depending on your condition, especially if you are taking pharmaceutical medications. I am just trying to caution people from the attitude that since herbs are natural they cannot have any negative effects. I never said that pharmaceutical drugs are safe, nor did I state that they have undergone adequate testing. You cannot deny the fact that drugs are studied MORE than herbs, regardless of the fact that the negative studies tend not to be published.

"ROTFLMAO!!!"

What do you find so amusing? Do you find that my health issues and AutumnSoul's are funny as well? This is a highly unprofessional response. You clearly have a bias against allopathic medicine, which I cannot blame you for based on what has happened to your friend, and grandfather. I am very sorry you lost your grandfather to a stupid doctor that did not know what he was doing. You have my sincerest condolences.

WHERE DID I EVER STATE THAT DOCTORS HAVE A CLUE AS TO HOW THE DRUGS THEY PRESCRIBE AFFECT THE BODY???

I stated that many of those who prescribe HERBS are not medical doctors and do not know how the HERBS can affect the body. You then responded with a whole bunch of cases of doctors not knowing how medications affect the body. What does that have to do with my original statement? You are making a gross assumption that I think that all doctors know how drugs affect the body. You are very mistaken.

I feel that most doctors are idiots, allopathic and alternative. You have provided many examples regarding stupid allopathic doctors, now let me provide you with examples of stupid alternative doctors. I was seeing a CCN (Certified Clinical Nutritionist) who is also a ND (Naturopathic Doctor) for GI issues. One of my major complaints was gas and bloating. After numerous tests devised by his own "lab" showing that I had nothing more but remnants of a klebsiella infection, he decided to give me FOS (fructooligosaccharides), despite my complaints of severe gas and bloating. The FOS made my condition a lot worse. I was having complete Niagara Falls diarrhea eight times a day. He then finally decided to do a CDSA (Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis) which showed that I had multiple intestinal infections of pathogenic bacteria, the worst one being Staphylococcus Aureus. He then stated that he was one of the first "doctors" to promote the notion that FOS can feed bad bacteria as well as good bacteria. If that were the case, why didn't he do the CDSA first to make sure I have no bad bacteria, especially since my complaints were indicative of such, and that everything else he gave me did not work to eliminate the problem??? In addition, I still had remnants of a klebsiella infection, which was actually more severe than his bogus "lab" test showed. This same "doctor" also gave me raw thyroid glandular extract for HYPERthyroidism. This is what caused my immune system to turn on my thyroid and cause Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I was young, stupid, and too trusting. Knowing what I know now, that is the stupidest treatment for HYPERthyroidism. That may be an appropriate treatment for HYPOthyroidism. Now I have a problem for life due that naturopath's butchery. My mother was prescribed homeopathic remedies to alleviate her feeling of being cold all the time. The homeopath was fully aware of my mother's hypertension, yet still prescribed her a remedy which raises blood pressure. Fortunately my mother was a registered nurse for 47 years, and knew enough to monitor her BP. She then spoke to the homeopath, and his response was, "oh yeah, don’t take one of the remedies I prescribed because it raises blood pressure." My mother's systolic blood pressure was over 200 mm Hg, which is dangerous. Had she continued with the homeopathic remedies, she could have had a heart attack or stroke. Never did the homeopath warn my mother about her blood pressure being affected, nor did he advise her to monitor it. My friend was put on TPN therapy by a famous alternative doctor. He developed an infection, which led to paralysis of his lower half of his body. He was hours from dying, before his spine was operated on. The TPN therapy was administered to give his digestive system a rest due to intestinal dysbiosis. Wrong protocol for the illness. I can also give you many examples of stupid allopathic doctors, but you have done enough.

You are assuming that because I stated that "herbs have not been studied properly, etc.", that I believe that medications have been. Again, I never stated that. I am fully aware of the practice of masking the dangers of pharmaceutical drugs, so the drug companies can profit. Propulsid, Fen-phen, etc. come to mind. Not to mention all the commercials telling you to call so and so law firm if you have taken a certain medication.

"If we change the word herbs to pharmaceutical drugs, then you will be spot on."

WHERE DID I STATE THAT PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGS HAVE BEEN ADEQUATELY TESTED???

Why are you making the assumption that I feel that drugs are safe??? I have read some of your other posts and am sure that you are a doctor. I am not sure exactly what kind, but you are clearly intelligent. Why do you make gross assumptions so quickly???

You stated that herbs have been tested on many humans, and because of that, they are safe. Where is the documentation of these studies? You cannot seriously consider administration of herbs to prisoners a sound scientific study. Are you kidding me? To this day, we (humans) torture prisoners. Who knows what they did back then, what diseases the prisoners had, if their areas were sanitary, etc. There are so many unknowns. Was there a control group? Were they double blind placebo controlled studies? Most definitely not. Were the prisoners' full medical history taken? Who knows what else these prisoners were taking, doing, or suffering from while on the herbs, and what the effects are, since there is no documentation dating back thousands of years. If a certain herb caused cancer by using it on a daily basis for years at a time, who would guess that it was the herb that caused the cancer, if this occurred two thousand years ago. Maybe the person smoked, and that was the cause, or maybe it was the herb. Did they even know what cancer was back then? HOW DO YOU KNOW??? This is what you base your claim of safety of herbs on??? You are more intelligent than that. I cannot believe you would consider Nazi like tests on prisoners, sound scientific studies.

"We are not rats."

So if a substance proves to be carcinogenic in rats, you would have no issues consuming that substance, since we are not rats, correct??? Are you crazy??? It was shown that sodium saccharin causes bladder tumors in mice. Well since we aren’t mice, that means that it won’t happen in humans, and you can take 1000 packets of Sweet N' Low a day, and nothing adverse will occur. Go ahead and try it. I sure won't. Your logic only weakens your argument.

"One case? And it is assumed that the ashwagandha was responsible?"

Well, first off it is one REPORTED case. Many people do not bother reporting their reactions to herbs or drugs, unlike myself in the first place. It must have been the ashwagandha because that was the only supplement she was taking, and short term use caused no problems. However long term use led to thyrotoxicosis, which stopped after ceasing use of the ashwagandha. The same thing happened to me. So now there are two reported cases. AutumnSoul may be a possible third. There are many reports of people on the internet who are hypothyroid and have been able to reduce the amount of levothyroxine they are taking when using ashwagandha. There are also many people who take ashwagandha in high concentrations for long periods of time, and have no adverse effects. Each person's physiology is different, and herbs will affect each person differently. What I find disturbing is that you won't even consider the POSSIBILITY that ashwagandha can have adverse effects in people. You just want to dismiss whatever I am saying as being untrue, and then you go on a rant of how herbs are always blamed for various ailments. This is no different than what the drug companies do, when they do not publish the negative studies on their drugs. Why do you refuse to believe that Ashwagandha MAY cause thyrotoxicosis in certain individuals??? Also by stating that it was assumed that ashwagandha was responsible, I can then say that it is ASSUMED that the sleeping pill made your friend hallucinate. I can argue that maybe he took something else, but I know of others that have taken hypnotics and have hallucinated, so I believe you.

"This does not mean it is raising thyroid hormone levels. It is merely changing one thyroid hormone to another."

AutumnSoul stated that is quite well documented that Ashwagandha will increase the conversion of T4 to T3, definitely not to be taken if you are hyperthyroid, or have an over sensitive thyroid. By increasing the conversion of T4 to T3, you are definitely raising the chances of having more free triiodothyronine in your system, which is raising thyroid hormone levels. What do you mean that ashwagandha doesn’t raise thyroid hormone levels but merely changes one thyroid hormone to another? Thyroxine (T4) is converted to triiodothyronine by means of the enzyme 5'-deiodinase, which raises your T3 levels, which could easily lead to an increase of free T3 levels. That’s like saying by taking Armour natural thyroid (T3), you won’t raise thyroid hormone levels. I do not understand what you are trying to state??? T4, for the most part is an inactive thyroid hormone, whereas T3 is the active form.

Your response to my statement of "no one really knows how many herbs work in the first place….." is another attack on pharmaceutical drugs. You again, ignore the statement and attack pharmaceutical drugs, which is not the issue here. I never said that everything is known about pharmaceutical drugs. No one really knows how SSRI's, SNRI's, or how many other drugs work. You say that they cause suicidal depression. I don't disagree with that, but that is not what happens in everyone. I have taken antidepressants for anxiety. Cymbalta was very helpful. If anything, it reduced any feelings of suicide, because I felt so much relief. Prozac was a nightmare. That drug is garbage, FOR ME. However, it has helped many people. Just like ashwagandha will help many people, but will have adverse reaction on others like myself, the Dutch woman, and possibly AutumnSoul. I say possibly AutumnSoul only because she took the ashwagandha with lemon balm. There is no way to know for sure what caused her problems, because two herbs were taken simultaneously. Yes, you are correct though, the warning about anti-depressants causing suicidal Depression should be applied to everyone, not just children and adolescents.

If so much is known about herbs explain how adaptogens exactly work. Why is it that Schisandra may stimulate one person, yet in another person like myself, it is very calming??? Since so much is known about herbs, please provide a full detailed technical explanation of how adaptogens affect the HPA axis, and can have opposing effects in different individuals??? Don't dumb it down for me. Anything I don't understand, I will look up and learn.

You wrote an all out assault on the allopathic monopoly which includes the pharmaceutical companies and their huge "racket". You wrote this to the wrong person, and it does not address any of the statements I made. I have found that herbs have helped my condition by far more than any medication out there, BUT I feel that there is a sense that since herbs are natural they are completely safe. That is not true. Certain herbs can raise blood pressure, such as certain ginsengs, so should be avoided by those who are hypertensive. My point is that herbs should be taken as seriously as medications, because some are potent and one should be aware of potential side effects. Did you read my original post properly? I clearly stated that I prefer adaptogens because they treat the cause, whereas medications treat symptoms. I am clearly a proponent of educated herb use. I am in the process of convincing my doctors of the beneficial effects of herbs, and if I can improve my condition considerably, it will be a great achievement for those of us who promote natural treatments.

Another issue is the interaction of herbs with medications. For example, Schisandra is a CYP3A4 inhibitor. This specific substrate of the liver's cytochrome P450 enzyme breaks down many medications. One common medication it breaks down is Diazepam (Valium). I take Diazepam on a daily basis. Had I not researched this, I would not have taken caution and checked how Diazepam affects me while on Schisandra. It would not be good if I fell asleep at the wheel while driving as a result of this. You made no mention about Schisandra's effects on CYP3A4.

You stated yourself that you were confused and did not understand how I could have Hashimoto's and be HYPERthyroid, yet in your response to AutumnSoul you state that Hashitoxicosis can occur with Hashimoto's thyroiditis. It is well known that in the sub-acute stage of Hashimoto's, one can be HYPERthyroid. Normally this is a short period, however in me it has been years, and I believe that this is due to how I contracted Hashimoto's. Specifically the naturopath's butchery as stated above. I'm a rare case, however you not understanding this makes me wonder what your background is, if you care to share. Are you an MD, ND, nutritionist, herbalist??? I have no medical background, however I am a degreed engineer. I have logical and critical reasoning skills that are far superior to most people, and I have the ability to learn. I am usually a doctor's worst nightmare, because I back up all useless doctors against the wall with logic alone, and get kicked out of their office when they can't answer my questions.

I have taken Ambien myself, and it did work for a few months. My mother takes it from time to time, when she can't sleep. When she takes it, she sleeps like a baby. To say that Ambien or Lunesta does not work, is not true. It works in some people and in others, it does not. Now when I take Ambien, it has absolutely no effect on me, even when taken with Schisandra. Since Ambien is hepatically metabolized by CYP3A4, the Ambien should knock me out, but it doesn't. Why??? Who knows?

I am far from a promoter of pharmaceutical drugs, but when illnesses are very bad, they do have their uses and can provide relief. That does not mean that they are not without danger. The same goes for herbs. I just want to make people aware that herbs can be very powerful and are not to be taken lightly. They can be misprescribed, just like any pharmaceutical drug.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ADVISING THAT I TRY LICOROCE ROOT AND JIAOGULAN. I looked up these herbs, and they are definitely appropriate for me to try. I do become hypertensive when my thyroid is hyper, however you stated that licorice will only cause hypertension at doses of 50g a day for 6 months straight. That eases my apprehensiveness, but I will still monitor my BP. You definitely know your herbs and are intelligent, but you need to calm down a bit, and READ someone's post properly, and not make assumptions in haste. I understand that you read many posts and cannot take the time to go crazy over each one. Your service here does not go unappreciated, and I do thank you for your help. I have no intention of offending you by responding, however you responded in an offensive, condescending fashion (e.g. "you have no clue", in reality you have no clue of what I know and do not know), and I tend to reciprocate. Again, no hard feelings.

If you are not offended by my post and are willing to answer some more questions, I am indebted to you. Here they are:

1) I am taking 200 mg of Schisandra (9% Schisandrins) daily, one time upon arising. I had to go back on Cymbalta when I could not tolerate the Prozac, however with the Schisandra I now only need 30 mg of Cymbalta as opposed to 60 mg. That is an incredible effect. I suggested to my doctor that she attend a conference on herbs, and she is very open to the idea. How long can I take the Schisandra, and if I were to double the dose, would I risk provoking my immune system to attack my thyroid, since it is high in polysaccharides.

2) It appears that Schisandra has a completely inhibitory effect on me. Could I take it night, instead of the morning?

3) How long can licorice and jiaogulan be taken for and at what dosage and strength? I read that jiaogulan should not be taken for more than 30 days, but what if I were to take it 5 days on and 2 days off? I am trying to get off the Cymbalta completely.

4) Are there any other adaptogens that would be worth trying for anxiety, fatigue, etc. ??? I don’t want anything that could provoke my immune system to attack my thyroid, or be overly stimulating that it will not allow me to take a nap when I need to. I suspect Siberian Ginseng does inhibit my ability to sleep.

5) Would you consider Hawthorne to be an adaptogen?

6) Is Bacopa an adaptogen and is it good for anxiety?

7) What are your feelings on Rhodiola? Some say it's good for anxiety, others say to stay away from it if you have anxiety. I don't know who to believe, and don’t like guinea pigging myself without proper research. I trust your judgment since you are clearly very knowledgeable with herbs.

Thank You,

aaarrrggghhh