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chrisb1
14 y
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more johng
14 y
3,910
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,596,207http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D
"Several forms (vitamers) of vitamin D have been discovered (see table). The two major forms are vitamin D2 or ergocalciferol, and vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol. These are known collectively as calciferol.[9] Vitamin D2 was chemically characterized in 1932. In 1936 the chemical structure of vitamin D3 was established and resulted from the ultraviolet irradiation of 7-dehydrocholesterol.[10]
Chemically, the various forms of vitamin D are secosteroids; i.e., steroids in which one of the bonds in the steroid rings is broken.[11] The structural difference between vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 is in their side chains. The side chain of D2 contains a double bond between carbons 22 and 23, and a methyl group on carbon 24."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secosteroid
Here we see mainstream medicine in fact using vitamin d, JUST LIKE A DRUG, to control and suppress the immune system, rather than treat the cause of psoriasis...
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/09546639809160720
this is not holistic, this is simply covering up the symptoms of the disease by suppressing the immune system. the danger is real. may not apply to everyone, but will apply to enough people that they should be aware of the issue. not told to ignore it.
John
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- Re: more SilverFox
14 y
3,675
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,596,236Hello John,
Let's look at Marshall's basic premise...
[quote from article] "... In response, the body increases production of 1,25-D from 25-D, leading to one of the hallmarks of chronic inflammatory disease: a low 25-D and a high 1,25-D." [end quote]
Another way to look at this is that since 25 D is the raw material needed to produce 1.25 D, the low levels of 25 D could just as well be cause by the body using up all the stores to produce the high levels of 1.25 D.
In this case, additional 25 D would allow the bodies immune system the raw product needed to fight the inflammation.
TomAdvertisement
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This is a reply to # 1,596,373Tom- but we are missing a step here. the body keeps producing 1.25-d because the VDR's, with which the 1.25-d interacts to activate the immune system, are blocked. any study that you read that discusses the beneficial effect of vitamin d is actually talking about 1.25-d which is actually more of a hormone than a vitamin. think about it, its high in the body, but it does nothing... because the next stage of the process is cut off.
John- Re: more SilverFox
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This is a reply to # 1,596,380Hello John,
No, I think you are missing the fact that if the vitamin D receptors were really blocked and the whole process was spinning out of control a person would quickly die due to excess calcium in the blood.
Since this is not happening, I have to assume that whatever you think is blocking the vitamin D receptors isn't really blocking them.
However, if you limited the raw material (D3) you could cause the body to feed off of its bone mass...
Also, isn't it the vitamin D receptors that trigger the production of 1.25 D? If you have excess 1.25 D in the blood perhaps the receptors are working fine.
On top of that I believe that recent studies have revealed that it appears that every cell in the body may have a vitamin D receptor, so it would be very difficult to block every cell in the body all at once.
The studies I have reviewed indicate that high 1.25 D levels in the blood are an indication that calcium is not being absorbed. Once you get the calcium under control, the 1.25 blood levels settle down. I don't believe there is a test for cellular 1.25 D or 25 D levels, but that would be very interesting.
Tom- Re: more johng
14 y
3,695
This is a reply to # 1,596,434Tom- you hypothesis seems a bit extreme and unrealistic. the human body is extroidinary is its ability to function and survive despite injury and illness. but this doesn't mean that you thrive either. blocked vdr receptors may not kill you overnight, but it certianly will allow chonic low grade bacterial infections to colonize the body. the process takes decades. look at the epidemic of chronic inflammatory disease going on around us. is it really that hard to accept that maybe, maybe there is an issue here? to me it is as clear as can be.
And no, the VDR do not produce most of the 1.25d. 1.25d fits in the vdr receptors like a key in the keyhole, activating the immune system.
Finally, there are tests for 1.25-d levels. just not that accurate, and for some reason, mainstream medicine discourages measuring 1.25-d. Considering that 1.25d is the compound that has the important health benefits, its seems odd that it is not regularly measured. people assume that by looking at 25d levels, you can predict the level of 1,25-d. this is not true as many factors can disturb the balence.
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- Re: more johng
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- Re: more SilverFox
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- Re: more johng
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- Re: more SilverFox
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- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... SilverFox
14 y
4,144
This is a reply to # 1,596,207Hello John,
That patent seems to be currently outdated, at least outdated according to the current standard of care for kidney transplants.
It appears that this discussion is suffering from the same confusion that the researchers and medical professionals are suffering from - Terminology.
The patent calls for supplementing with 1.25 D. I don't think anyone is suggesting that is the form of D to supplement with. 25 D is what is formed when your skin is exposed to sunlight, and 25 D is what is recommended for supplementation and is known as D3. Your body converts 25 D to 1.25 D as needed to maintain serum calcium levels, and stores the left over 25 D in cells.
Transplant procedures used 1.25 D directly to guard against bone loss, but the current standard of care has changed to supplementing with ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) which is available as a prescription. Since D3 is not available as a prescription, D2 is ordered.
The amount of D2 the transplant patient has to take is determined by measuring the blood levels of 25 D.
This information comes from a kidney transplant patient who had the transplant some 12 years ago and has followed the vitamin D information with keen interest. With a transplanted kidney 150000 - 200000 IU a week are necessary to maintain proper 25 D levels and to maintain bone mass. As I understand it, the prime concern has to do with loss of bone mass. The efforts made using 1.25 D resulted in wide variations in blood levels that were extremely difficult to control.
I guess the main problem I have with Marshall and his work is that he is building models based upon mathematical possibilities. You say that he may be correct in is definition of the problem, but you totally disagree with his treatment outline. The fact is that the same model is being used for both.
On the other hand, evidence based medicine is showing very positive results when 25 D levels are in a therapeutic range.
If Marshall's group is every successful in verifying the various aspects of his model that may open up additional areas of study, but for now the choice looks like it is between a theoretical model and actual results. I believe Marshall is planning on doing a clinical trial in China. It will be interesting to see how well his model performs in that trial.
Computers allow you to explore all of the various possibilities but they don't tell you which one, or which set, is correct. I have been involved in many situations where the computer model stated that everything was good to go, and then the structure failed when it was put into service. While everything looked good on paper, the proof was in the actual use. The body is much more complex than a structure, and the proof manifests itself in the actual quality of life primarily, followed by the actual length of life.
I trust the computer to alert me to the various possibilities, but I live by what gives me a high quality of life.
Tom- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... johng
14 y
3,663
This is a reply to # 1,596,367I agree completely, and am glad that you are at least open to the possibility that there are different ways of looking at this issue. if what marshall is saying is correct, than, for a significant subset of the population, supplementing with vitamin d without rectifying the underlying disease process, is seriously harmful. given all the links I provided that discuss the close simmilarity between the structure of d2 or d3 and a steroid, it pays to look at this closely, and not assume that simply by artifically raising 25d levels in the body long term good has been achieved. none of the studies go out far enough, and most deal with short term benefits that you might expect to see from steroidal suppression of the immune system/inflamation. and though Chris discounts my own personal experience, it is exactly the reason why I am so adamant about this. it is a real problem that is being ignored and papered over. by the time some people figure this out, the damage will have been done.
John- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... SilverFox
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Hello John,
The whole purpose of discussion is to explore different pathways.
I might add that vitamin D is not the "be all, end all" of health. People with therapeutic levels of vitamin D will still get sick (although not as often) and still die (although not as soon). On the other side, some people with low levels of vitamin D will remain healthy and live long lives.
The first step anyone should take is to evaluate where they are. It is important to define a starting point before starting on a journey. Once you figure this out, you can then look at the various paths and pick one. When a person falls out of health, there are many paths back. You shouldn't just start running in a random direction, but should formulate a plan and go from there.
The decisions we make today will effect us tomorrow. We try to gather information to base our decisions on, and then make the best decision we can. I think it is important to look at the different aspects of the problem.
I hope you realize that no one is trying to discount your personnel experience... It's just that you are wrong... [big smile icon]
Not really. Your experience is very valuable and raises another consideration as people start out along the path of healing. We almost never are able to take in the big picture, so it is important to share experiences like yours. This allows us to step back and raise our senses to a higher alert status as we start down the path to healing.
Thank you for your experience, and thank you for being willing to discuss it.
Tom- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... johng
14 y
3,956
This is a reply to # 1,596,443Tom- very kind of you to say. Of course we disagree, but not totally. I agree that in perfectly healthy adults, vit d supplements are fine. My only problem here is that people are promoting vit d without acknowledging potential dangers.
autoimmune illnesses are growing by leaps and bounds, and no one really knows why with any certainty. adding vitamin d into this mix is very dangerous, and much more research is necessary before the reasons will be well understood.
I think i have posted enough studies to amply illustrate my point, that vit d really is a hormone, and like any hormone, great care needs to be taken. anyone here remember hormone replacement therapy? can't happen you say? seems very plausable, and my own personal experience validates the risk. if you have never suffered from an autoimmune type illness, you simply can't understand the hell. why are so quick to dismiss here? it almost seems like people want to shoe the issue under the rug, because it makes them uncomfortable. Of course people have to be defensive, because if true, everyone from mercola to weil to every other health guru is feeding bad info to the general public. you can bet that people will deny this issue until the bitter end.
John
- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... johng
14 y
3,956
- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... SilverFox
14 y
3,622
- more importantly... johng
14 y
3,780
This is a reply to # 1,596,367the reason I posted that sampling of links was to point out to Chris and others who may be unaware, that vit D (25D) does in fact have steroidal properties and can have immunosuppresive effects. vit d, in any form, is no simple vitamin and people need to understand that.
John- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
3,850
This is a reply to # 1,596,388Advertisement
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Wrong again John,
Vitamin D is actually a prehormone and only attains the properties of a steroidal hormone when converted to calcitriol via the kidneys, which again is a level determined by the body.
The information and links you have posted on in relation to Vitamin D having immunosuppressive effects, only occurs when supplemented with (to quote your first link) "massive doses".
No one John is advocating "massive doses", only those doses that are beneficial and optimal for the body.
Your body needs water to survive, but in excess will kill you.
Chrisb1.
- Re: more importantly... johng
14 y
3,766
This is a reply to # 1,596,449Chris- I think you missed this quote above:
"Chemically, the various forms of vitamin D are secosteroids; i.e., steroids in which one of the bonds in the steroid rings is broken.[11] The structural difference between vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 is in their side chains. The side chain of D2 contains a double bond between carbons 22 and 23, and a methyl group on carbon 24."
even before conversion, D2 and D3 (ie, most supplements) are basically a steroids. after eventual conversion to 1.25-d, we now essentiall have a hormone.
also, your comments on the studies are not accurate, but rather, appear to attempt to sidestep the issue. some of the studies involve large doses, others don't. even small amounts can be immunosuppressive for some people. it depends on what kind of health the person is in, and, the degree of VDR blockage. speaking in absolutes simply does not reflect the reality of the human body. besides, some of the doses that I see people talking about are indeed massive and unatural. where are your studies to show that the body is always able to convert D3 to 25D to 1.25-d without issues, and that no pathogens can interefere with the process?
you asked me to show you something to prove that vit d is immunosuppressive. I did that in spades.
John- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
4,024
This is a reply to # 1,596,461John,
There is a difference of opinion then about what is and what is not a hormone and/or prehormone and steroid.
This is the generally accepted view of what this non-vitamin actually is......................
Technically not a "vitamin," vitamin D is in a class by itself. Its metabolic product, calcitriol, is actually a secosteroid hormone that targets over 2000 genes (about 10% of the human genome) in the human body.
Types of "Vitamin D"............
#1. Cholecalciferol is the naturally occurring form of vitamin D. Cholecalciferol is made in large quantities in your skin when sunlight strikes your bare skin. It can also be taken as a supplement.
#2. Calcidiol (25-hydroxyvitamin D) is a PREHORMONE in your blood that is directly made from cholecalciferol. When being tested for vitamin D deficiency, calcidiol is the only blood test that should be drawn. When someone refers to vitamin D blood levels, they are referring to calcidiol levels. Your doctor can order calcidiol levels but the lab will know calcidiol as 25-hydroxyvitamin D.
#3. Calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D) is made from calcidiol in both the kidneys and in other tissues and is the most potent STEROID HORMONE derived from cholecalciferol. Calcitriol has powerful anti-cancer properties. It is sometimes referred to as the active form of vitamin D. Calcitriol levels should never be used to determine if you are deficient in vitamin D.
Calcitriol is a potent steroid hormone, in fact, it is the most potent steroid hormone in the human body. A steroid hormone is simply any molecule in the body that is made from cholesterol and that acts to turn your genes on and off. They are always important to health, always need to be handled with care, and are often quite potent.
Calcitriol made by the kidneys circulates in the blood to maintain your blood calcium levels. Calcium is vital to the function of the cells in the body, without enough calcitriol in the blood calcium levels will fall and illness will set in. Therefore, the first priority for calcidiol is to go to the kidney where it makes enough calcitriol to secrete into the blood in order to regulate serum calcium.
Despite your limited studies on Vitamin D's immunosuppressive effects, there are an equal number of studies that demonstrate its immune-boosting effects.
Dr Marina Rode von Essen and colleagues from the University of Copenhagen and Bispebjerg Hospital in Denmark carried out this research. The researchers concluded that T cells produce vitamin D receptors when they are primed to respond to antigens. Vitamin D then acts via the receptor to stimulate production of phospholipase C-γ1. These changes are necessary for the T cells to be activated.
Vitamin D was shown to be involved in the activation of the T cells of the immune system.
Lead researcher Professor Carsten Geisler of Copenhagen University was quoted by 'The Daily Telegraph' as saying, "When a T-cell is exposed to a foreign pathogen, it extends a signaling device or 'antenna' known as a vitamin D receptor, with which it searches for vitamin D.
"This means that the T-cell must have vitamin D or activation of the cell will cease. If the T-cells cannot find enough vitamin D in the blood, they won't even begin to mobilize."
I could go on but don't have the time.
Chrisb1.
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- Re: more importantly... johng
14 y
3,781
This is a reply to # 1,596,651Chris- given how much time you devote to promoting vitamin d, I would think that you could make time to give full disclosure on benefits as well as risks. besides, it doesn't take a lot of time. the short answer of whether vitamin d activates the immune system or suppresses the immune system depends entirely on the terrain of the body (to what extent are the VDR's blocked) and the level of intake of vit d derivatives. that is, if you look at this holistically. if blockage exists that the body cannot utilize 1.25-d, any significant vitamin d intake will result in further immunosuppression. and, further colonization by l-form bacteria. not complicated at all, and much better to give people the whole picture, so they at least have the chance to figure this out for themselves (since no else is obviously going to help them).
i really have to hand it the boys behind big pharma. just at the time when (some) people are starting to wake up to the dangers of big medicine and drugs, they come up with somesome so diabolically brillant, that almost no one can even accept that it might be true... figure out that in people with moderately suppressed immune systems, from a lifetime of vaccinations, antibiotic, heavy metals and bad diet, something like the vitamin d pathway can slowly be corrupted by something touted as an all natural vitamin, when in reality, it might as well be prendisone for the long term effect it has on the body. set up a foundation to promote the "vitamin" giving people warm and happy correlational studies that don't really mean anything but make for great headlines. knowing that almost no one has time to really read between the line, or think of long term implications... of course its appalling, but, I have to give credit where credit is due. nothing short of brilliant.
John- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
3,836
This is a reply to # 1,596,689John,
my interest in Nutrition began over 30 years ago.
I only promote the idea of Vitamin D because of the Global insufficiency/deficiency that has arisen due to the ignorance and consensus of opinion by so-called "expert dermatologists". They have recommended limited if any sun-exposure for decades, accompanied with the use of chemical sun-screens for the fear of contracting skin-cancer.
This ignorance has led to more incidence of disease than would otherwise have been the case, and especially so in the case of cancer.
The fact remains that without the Sun, life on Earth would be impossible, and where the healing powers of the Sun have been used for eons past: as in Heliotherapy.
Natural Hygiene also promoted the use of sun-baths along with air-baths for their distinct and lasting health-benefits and in line with their teachings based on Physiological Laws.
Regular and judicious sunlight-exposure is essential then for optimal health, and which provides Vitamin D and other benefits via its action on the nervous system, bodily chemistry and metabolic processes generally.
The main action of sunlight in health though is providing sufficient Vitamin D (Cholcalciferol) by its biological action thru the skin, which then acts as a prophylactic against serious and even viral diseases.
This optimized level is determined by Nature and the body itself, which has the innate quality of self-determination; self-repair; self-recovery and self-maintenance; provided that the body is subjected to its ideal environmental conditions in achieving this.
This is really a no-brainer: do you agree with God and Nature?
That's it.
Due to the fact that many millions of people have been so underexposed and/or even avoided the Sun entirely, these optimal bodily levels fall woefully short of Natures predetermined ideal, and therefore the very real potential for developing disease.
In addition, regular and ideal sunlight exposure is limited to the time of year, or a sedentary occupation which limits this exposure even further.
The purpose of the Vitamin D Council is therefore one of education to eradicate this ignorance and the reasons why supplementation has become a necessity, if sun-exposure is not ideal and optimum levels are not met.
After all Cholcalciferol is Cholcalciferol, whether it is manufactured in the skin or taken orally.
No one is advocating toxic levels, and why they encourage D testing to determine this.
The benefits of supplementation therefore out-way any risks, which (do not forget) is the main guideline for the approval of any drug by Americas FDA.
The benefits of Vitamin D.........
#1.It promotes healthy teeth and bones in kids.
#2.It promotes calcium absorption, bone mass, prevents bone loss,
#3. It protects against muscle weakness.
#4. It lowers the risk of colon, breast, and prostate cancers.
#5. Immune system functioning is improved, auto immune diseases can be prevented, and Rheumatoid Arthritis are all improved with vitamin D.
#6. It prevents/treats rickets, post menopausal osteoporosis.
#7. It also prevents falls and fractures in those at risk for osteoporosis, corticosteroid induced osteoporosis, and osteomalacia.
#8. It also treats hypoglycemia, bone disorders, psoriasis, squamous cell cancers, vitiligo, and scleroderma.
#9. Multiple Sclerosis can also be treated and the vitamin and even prevents the development of Type 1 diabetes.
#10. It improves cognition.
In relation to Depression..........
Wilkins CH, Sheline YI, Roe CM, Birge SJ, Morris JC. Vitamin D deficiency is associated with low mood and worse cognitive performance in older adults. Am J Geriatr Psychiatry. 2006 Dec;14(12):1032-40.
Back Pain..........
Lotfi A, Abdel-Nasser AM, Hamdy A, Omran AA, El-Rehany MA. HypoVitaminosis D in female patients with chronic low back pain. Clin Rheumatol. 2007 Mar 22; [Epub ahead of print].
Bone Health...........
Pérez-López FR. Vitamin D and its implications for musculoskeletal health in women: An update. Maturitas. 2007 Jun 28; [Epub ahead of print].
Cognitive Enhancement..............
Przybelski RJ, Binkley NC. Is Vitamin D important for preserving cognition? A positive correlation of serum 25-hydroxyVitamin D concentration with cognitive function. Arch Biochem Biophys. 2007 Apr 15;460(2):202-5.
Cancer...............
Lappe J, Travers-Gustafson D, Davies K, Recker R, Heaney R. Vitamin D and calcium supplementation reduces cancer risk: results of a randomized trial. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. June 8;85(6):1586-1591.
Ma Y, et al. Study presented at the 2007 centennial meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research (AACR), April 14 to 18, 2007, Los Angeles.
Immunity.....................
Cannell JJ, Vieth R, Umhau JC, Holick MF, Grant WB, Madronich S, Garland CF, Giovannucci E. Epidemic influenza and Vitamin D. Epidemiol Infect. 2006 Dec;134(6):1129-40.
and..
Kuryłowicz A, Bednarczuk T, Nauman J. [The influence of Vitamin D deficiency on cancers and autoimmune diseases development.] [Article in Polish] Endokrynol Pol. 2007;58(2):140-152.
A growing number of researchers who have widely studied Vitamin D3 are advising the general public to consume more of this important nutrient.
Vitamin D3 has a high safety profile in doses up to 10,000 IU per day and because of the wide role it plays in our health, consuming 2,000 to 4,000 IU per day of this nutrient, and at the times of the year when sunlight is scarce, is a prudent way to improve overall health.
The Risks of Vitamin D?
I suggest you read this.
http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/VitDVieth/Vieth%20CHAPTER%2061.pdf
You still have yet to produce any corroborated and Scientific information on the blockage of VDR's, of which I cannot find any information within all of the Scientific literature.
Chrisb1
- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
3,836
- Re: more importantly... johng
14 y
3,781
- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
4,024
- Re: more importantly... johng
14 y
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- Re: more importantly... chrisb1
14 y
3,850
- Re: immunosuppressive, not in disput... johng
14 y
3,663
This is a reply to # 1,595,277
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