Re: what problem you got with the law?

As far as I can tell from what you are saying, we are in agreement. I have also tried following the letter of the law before with terrible results because I didn't understand Christ's message when I first read it. I think as humans, we can tend to gravitate toward commandments because that is something we can understand with our intellects, whereas grace is much harder to understand.

I really didn't know exactly what your views were on this matter, because we never discussed it. I'm sure you have discussed this topic a lot with others (and I read a lot of your posts that are not part of our conversation), but I didn't know all of your opinions on this. Keep in mind that when I am sharing my opinions and asking questions, they are not necessarily all directed at you specifically, Vektek. They are general questions for anyone that might read this post.

'Good works we do or keeping God's laws that are written on our hearts, are only a result and not the cause of salvation.' Yes, that is exactly the way I feel, and that is what I was trying to say. Our actions are the result of the salvation that we have received by grace. My point is, if we don't have the fruit of the spirit, then have we indeed received the saving grace of Christ? Is it possible to have the cause (the saving grace of Christ) without the effect (the fruits of the Spirit, love, charity and joy)? Can we be saved by grace and not have the fruits of the Spirit? Christ says no, they both go together. There is no debate between these two issues, except by those who don't understand it or don't want to accept all of the teachings of Christ. My view is that instead of trying to follow the commandments, every believer should rely completely on the grace of Christ, and then examine their heart and their life and ask themselves, 'Am I displaying the fruits of the Spirit in my heart and in my life'? (which is mainly loving God, having joy in our hearts and loving and serving our fellow humans as Christ taught). If we honestly examine our hearts and answer no to this question, then we must examine our faith in Christ, is there some part of us that is resisting Him? Is there some way that we need to surrender more fully to Him? This is not addressed to you specifically, vektek, but anyone that might read this. If we are not displaying the fruits of the Spirit, this is not a reason to despair and give up, but to question our own hearts, and to dedicate ourselves to prayer in Christ and ask Him to help us surrender ourselves to Him completely, to help us let the flesh die and be born of His Spirit. Perhaps we are not yet displaying the fruits of the Spirit, but we have completely dedicated our hearts to Christ and we are right where He wants us, but when He is done with us, we will bear the fruit of the Spirit.

'And so when Jesus told that man in Luke to go fulfill what the law required to be saved, to love God and his neighbor perfectly, he was showing that man that he better be depending on something else other than his ability to fulfill that law, or he was doomed!'

Well said, I agree, and I would add that after someone comes to Christ and receives His grace, the effect is that we will love Him with all our hearts. How could we not after realizing the amazing gift we have received from Him? Our love of God, is the result of our salvation.

In terms of a believer, of course the grace is the most important thing for us to accept. After the grace comes the fruit; it is the proof (to ourselves and others) of our salvation.

I agree that the debate should happen for those people that want to deny either side of the truths taught by Christ. I guess I shouldn't say it is silly because I was one of the silly people that didn't understand the whole Gospel, but that was before I really started seeking Christ. Once I sought Christ, then everything made sense and things that seemed to be contradictions all fit into place in perfect harmony.

As far as obeying the Old covenant, I agree with you that Christ said that was fulfilled with His covenant, but I really don't know enough about that issue to comment much.