Regarding 'money & herbs'... Re: "When science cannot be questioned..."

This added topic (the ethics of selling herbs and healers making money) is actually a TOTALLY different topic from 'liver flush debating' and should be in an entirely different forum...because it has nothing to do with liver flushing. And while I agree with your post content regarding the aspects that relate to liver flushing, I somewhat disagree with your theory & accusations regarding the selling of herbs.

So, when I'm done here, I will repost my original post in this thread, so there can be a thread devoted to comments & the discussion of the original thoughts (if anyone chooses to add any), and I will reply with my thoughts regarding the 'money aspects' below.

You said:

>>>money may not be the root of all evil, but it certainly travels in the same circles and when mixed with medicine it is indeed an evil. this is why i brought up my point about financial objectives rather than humanitarian objectives. i stand by that point and i think it is relevant.  ---  want to prove me wrong?  ---   then become a humanitarian and stop pursuing medicine as business. dole out your services free of charge and that will carry some weight.   ---   the reason Liver Flushes are so threatening to these types is precisely because you can't patent olive oil and grapefruit juice. but you can patent arcane herbal formulas (i suppose).   ---   it is a very rare bird in the alternative medical community who truly practices to help people. there is almost always a financial motive. and that motive is intimately tied to the notion that said practitioner has the latest and greatest information, herb, potion, philosophy. and this is what they leverage in order to charge money. it is plain and simple and obvious to anyone who been around the block.  ---  pointing this out is a threat only to someone who wishes to disguise this fact.<<<

It would seem to me that the logic of your statements is somewhat faulty on this particular topic.  Someone can be truly humanitarian with a pure goal & intent without being born with a limitless budget.  Everyone deserves to eat.  Any workman is worthy of his hire...if the work/product is solid, person has integrity, and the buyer is getting exactly what he opted to purchase, of course.

The love of money (which is what is alleged to be the root of all evil, not money itself) adversely affects the integrity of many people in virtually every field.  But it wasn't always that way with healers, and it doesn't have to be that way now.   Before the AMA came along and went on their rampage to "reorganize" the entire field of medicine and eliminate 'the healing arts' (basically the late 1890's through the 1930's), a typical physician, herbalist or homeopath (or other type of healer) had about the same income of a skilled laborer or craftsman.  Since THE main/founding purpose of the AMA has always been to "protect the legal & financial interests of it's members", one of the first things they did in their rampage was severely alter the ratio of "doctors to patients" nationwoide (and eliminate the competition of practicioners that didn't fit into their agenda); this caused there to be FAR fewer doctors, so their prices and services would be more profitable.  Of course, when the dust settled one had to have a license to practice medicine, which involved investing more into their education and 'set up' than ever before in history.  And during this time the AMA and Big Pharma spent hundreds of millions of dollars in mass propaganda to "teach" people that they didn't have the education or 'advanced scientific knowledge' that it takes to safely heal or treat oneself.  And now sadly, the vast majority of herbalists and alternative practicioners have fallen prey to this and have been duped (at various levels) by this lie.  But to stay "on point"...

...this statement >>> want to prove me wrong?  then become a humanitarian and stop pursuing medicine as business. dole out your services free of charge and that will carry some weight.<<< is a faulty ascertation and illogical.  No one in any field that has a fair exchange of goods/services for money needs to give away their goods/services to prove their ethics, integrity or humanitarian intent. 

And this >>> pointing this out is a threat only to someone who wishes to disguise this fact.<<< is absolutely false.  Your ascertations that one has profit motives (that override their ethics) when they sell herbs or practice the healing arts is very threatening to me, and I have absolutely nothing to hide or disguise!  ALTHOUGH, there are those that do wish to disguise their motives, and if your ascertations & judgment of their motives are correct, then your information might be viewed as a threat.

Although it's no ones business what we do with the "profits" from the sale of herbs from our Apothecary, I have no problem sharing it to show there ARE people in this world that sell herbs that have a pure heart & selfless intent.  We "gift" somewhere between 10-25% of the GROSS SALES every month...and there has been more than one month when we've contented ourselves with eating only sprouts and 'rice & beans' because we 'gifted away' our grocery money to ensure others had the healing herbs they need.  And we regularly take so much of the profit to increase inventory (creating new combinations and different herbal tinctures for those who need them), that even though our gross sales should provide an "adequate personal income", at year's end when the paperwork is done we're still far enough below the poverty level that we're eligible for foodstamps (and when it's two adults with no children, one has to be WAY below the poverty level to be eligible for food stamps!).  We don't choose to take handouts from the government, but the fact is that we care more about the health & well-being of our fellow humans than we do about our own standard of living.  And in this world if you can find someone that's more humanitarian and sincere than that (that wasn't born with a platinum spoon in their mouth), then you have indeed found a "rare bird" (as you said).  (Note: of course, after a few years of 'giving, growing & investing' we expect to realize a profit that will raise our income above the poverty level - and we trust that by being servants and giving selflessly to others, that will be the case).

Bottom line: a fair exchange of goods/services for money is NOT unethical.  And when those services include giving away 12-16 hours daily of ones own time for absolutely no compensation...well then, it's actually lopsided in favor of the buyer.  Speaking of buyers - it IS the responsibility of the buyer to determine the value and usefullness of whatever they buy.  A person could make a blend of horse & cow manure mixed with compost & battery acid, patent it, and sell it.  It would be ethical to sell it as long as the label on the jar matched the jar contents!  Of course, if they made claims that were false, it wouldn't be moral...but that doesn't have anything to do with liver flushing.

It seems that in attempting to prove other debators incorrect on liver flushing, you're attempting to prove their character or integrity is questionable.  And this IS a common debate tactic (and may actually have merit, if one were allowed to 'attack the messenger' on CZ).  And frustratingly for all of us, it is a tactic that is commonly used by some that you're debating against you/others.  How you/others choose to debate is 'none of my beeswax' :)  However I have no need to attempt to discredit my opponents in debates by attacking (or proving) their character or intenst is less than what I consider ethical...I prefer to stick to the topic alone.   Judging anyone's ethics & integrity was certainly not the purpose of my original post. 

Lisamarie23, when I read your post/response to my initial post I was in total agreement from the beginning, but as you got into the "money thing" I became downhearted...because I knew (to be true to myself and purpose), I would be sharing my disagreement with the statements I disagreed with.  And the last thing that this forum needs is for those that understand the benefits & validty of liver flushing to be in disagreement :(  I do understand the levels of frustration that come from debating with people that won't look past "scientific proof" (especially when they use 'debate tactics' that many consider to be faulty, off topic or even/perhaps unethical), and how issues of money/ethics & integrity come into play.  But being a CZ veteran, I've learned that 'attacking the messenger' (no matter how valid or invalid), many times is either disallowed, results in loss of priviledges, or is not understood by others.   There have been MANY days when I've silently applauded your stance & efforts (and the amazing amount of time you spend!)....and the time & efforts of many others, as well.   But all I had the time to do was 'vote' and send you my support via prayer/meditation.

Whether or not your ascertations of 'character and intent' of those that attempt to disprove and villainize liver flushing are true or false (or somewhere in between), the points you have made regarding liver flushing that are valid and logical are just as valid an logical as they were before 'character & intent' became an issue.  And I do applaud & agree with those valid points, and hope that I haven't discouraged you (or anyone else) in all the good you've done (and will hopefully/likely continue doing!).

Blessings to us all as we enter a glorious New Year!

Unyquity