Re: The 800 pound gorilla and free will... How do you define yourself?

Glad you enjoyed, I also enjoyed in thinking about what to say to the gorilla  standing outside.

Dquixote12 writes: If all is predetermined, why act at all? If we simply sit back and try to observe and better ourselves as individuals while believing all is predetermined, and a few good men do not again step to the fore, where will we be tomorrow?

I don't think I am coming across as saying that you should do anything different than what you have chosen to do for yourself. I do not advocate having any beliefs whatsoever. Trying to make ourselves better than what we are, this is the cause that is behind the mess that humanity is in today. Trying to better oneself, this idea, comes from the world of cause and effect. 

Please be careful to not paste your own interpretation over what has been posted. The article states that our lives are both predetermined and also not predetermined. That whatsoever is associated with the material world, whatsoever one is identified with relative to the world of things, the body-mind, ideas and concepts is predetermined. But there is continually something there that remains undetermined. And that something is consciousness.  

I think you would agree that not everyone is equal, that everyone is created with equal opportunity for growth to take place, but we grow unequally. So the proportions that one identifies himself with the material world and the dimension of consciousness is different for everyone.

If you are identified with your body and your material existence, in the same proportion you are determined by cause and effect. Then you are a machine. But if you are not identified with your material existence, with either body or mind – if you can feel yourself as something separate, different, above and transcendent to body-mind – then that transcending consciousness is not predetermined. It is spontaneous, free.

I would not assume to know what exactly took place within the mind/body/consciousness of  Thomas Paine when he sat down and wrote the pamphlet Common Sense, let alone the mindset of the members of the Continental Congress during that time in history. History books are written by everyday people, people with a mind of their own. They are authors working for a living, much like journalists are today. As we should all have realized by this time that when you read something out of a book, newspaper, magazine, it is second hand information. You can choose to call it the truth but I certainly would advise caution in doing so. The subject matter is very likely being tainted to some degree or another, ornamented with flowers and with perfume of the writer's own choosing.

I would not hesitate to say the there was no doubt an atmosphere present at that time that was caused by events that preceeded Thomas Paine's decision to sit down and write this piece. Where his inspiration came from no one but Thomas Paine can say, then too, maybe he would be unable to honestly say so either.

If I can draw an analogy with a more contemporary author. During the time of the mid sixties to early seventies, Bob Dylan was invited to many activist peace rallies due to his popularity and success from the songs he wrote that came to be recorded. Many of his songs appeared to be supportive of the atmosphere for change that was growing during those days. Many assumed that Bob was an political activist like Joan Baez. But if you have ever seen the PBS "American Master" series dvd of the many interviews with Bob, you will find that he absolutely dismisses the idea of his being a political activist. Nor did he in any way support any of these anti-war groups. He was just doing his own thing. The DVD reveals that he was himself quite amazed by all the nonsense that was going on around him. The nonsense that was created by the press and the public masses. In retrospect, it appears that he was able to tap into the atmosphere of the day, the collective unconscious, and wrote songs with lyrics that various segments of the populations of people applied to their various anti-war and peace movements. He himself denies he was a war protestor or a political activist. He was watching the whole thing unfold before him without choosing to have it happen.

I don't assume to know what makes Bob Dylan tick but from his own words he says, "...To be an artist, one has to be in a constant state of becoming..."

The main reason for posting this is to reiterate the point... of freedom. Everyone is searching for freedom and how to attain it, how to protect it.  And everyone is different in how they see it is to be done. As everyone is a different stage of growth.

Those that are identified with the world of cause and effect are concerned with the material world. Their choice of action, in securing freedom for themselves, is to change the world that they see outside themselves... to create the situation for freedom to grow and flourish. 

Those that are concerned with consciousness, perhaps have had experiences that show them that action in changing the material world is secondary to the freedom that can be found relative to consciousness of the inner world - Moving inwards to realize the freedom that exists within themselves, as it is within everyone. This course of action looks contradictory to those concerned with the world of cause and effect, because this action looks like non-action, as if one is taking no action at all. One comes to understand that this is just not the case only when they come to experience this for himself.

Both sides are seeking the same thing... Freedom.

For "freedom seekers" concerned with changing the outside world and to be antagonistic toward "freedom seekers" that concerned with the inner world, it is like the left brain fighting with the right brain, the right hand fighting with the left hand. And it is both, the right and left, that are needed to make up a whole being.

...and a few good men do not again step to the fore, where will we be tomorrow?

Yes, a few good men are needed that step to the fore, most certainly those men will be there because that will be their role - to step to the fore. But if you think everybody should take such action, then your view is limited, and is not allowing the 'free will' in acting according to how they view this world. Yes, a really good rebellion is needed. Everyone will be involved in some way or other. Many will be playing out their roles, but only according to their own view, a course of action in how they perceive it. This allows freedom, remember.

There will be those that will take on other roles, remember people are different. No doubt there will be many that will be used as canon fodder. There will be many that will awaken further on down the line than you or I to the situation that is coming, as it comes, and long after is has already come. There will be soldiers that will also get a clue and desert their posts. There will be those that will never get a clue and will fight to the death taking many innocent with them. It will be an absolute nightmare. It will last years and years and years and years. And the nightmare will be followed by a period of tremendous peace and freedom, before the whole thing cirles back around and begins again. It will come again because it is a part of  the world of cause and effect. 

That is where we will be tomorrow.... and then there will be another two people sitting and writing to each other on some kind of computer-like machines discussing about the same things that you and I are discussing today.