How do you tell a person they have N... 
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Let's say, hypothetically, that there is this circle of friends. And let's say, hypothetically, that this circle of friends all have an acute awareness of NPD, and have experience in dealing with persons afflicted with NPD. And let's say, hypothetically, that they all have some degree of narcissism themselves (because the truth of it is, they really are unique, and smarter and better looking than the average bear) ;)
But let's say, hypothetically, that one of them is flying their red NPD flag really high and waving it all around. Let's say, their narcissism has become full blown NPD. Let's say that every interaction with them leaves you feeling insulted and abused. Does one have an obligation to call a spade a spade? How can a person lovingly approach this subject with the NPD? Let's say we want to really give them the benefit of the doubt, and believe that somewhere inside of them is a soul, and that if they are putting energy into educating themselves about NPD and educating themselves about healing that they should be given the knowledge that their own NPD is RAGING! so they can focus on healing/cleansing that toxicity within themselves.
Would an intervention work? The entire circle of friends sharing how the NPD affects them?
Are there any alternatives?
Love~
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- Re: How do you tell a person they ha... #68716
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MoreThis is a reply to # 856,593Go right ahead with your intervention. Then, run for the hills.
A person with full-blown NPD does not care whether their friends are hurt, concerned, afraid, or any other emotion. Narcissistic personality disorder is a choice of behaviors that inflicts harm upon others for the sole benefit (or, entertainment) of the NPD. An NPD has one friend, only: themselves. Every "good deed" has an ulterior motive with gratification at the core. Personally, I don't have time to fool around with NPD and opt to choose friends who are positive and genuine.
Each and every one of us human beings has the ability and opportunity to behave in a narcissistic manner, but there is quite a difference between NPD and just being an *sshole.
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This is a reply to # 856,674Each and every one of us human beings has the ability and opportunity to behave in a narcissistic manner, but there is quite a difference between NPD and just being an *sshole.
How would you define the difference?- That is quite a question! fledgling
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This is a reply to # 856,978What is the difference between an NPD and a person just acting like an *sshole?
...Especially if they do it often, like for years...like for more than sixty years.
The ones I am thinking of took major blows as children, and continued taking both the short end of the stick, and direct hits financially and emotionally in adulthood.
They reacted very strongly, taking extreme stands, trying to overwhelm their tormenters, as well as everyone else. They hit when they thought they were entitled, 'supposed to' (as parental 'discipline' and chastizing), even chastizing spouses and parents and sometimes friends, though they usually limited their disapproval to loud pronouncements, telling off, and dramatic final separations...never to see or speak again.
One killed himself...looking to 'square' with his estranged mother at the end, but unable to locate her after all.
As far as I can see, over-discipline led to the downfall of all three, a father and his two sons...perhaps unto one of the two grandsons also.
The father went on to raise a second family, and devastated those children as well.
Religious fervor played a significant role, right from the get-go, even to total rejection of religion in any form. These men were/are desperate for high respect/regard.
Perhaps it is to their credit that they did no one real physical harm, but they were/are unable to be completely happy themselves, and certainly hurt their families emotionally.
Narcissistic? Certainly, but probably not true narcissists. Just never learned NOT to think, feel, and act like *ssholes, I think.
Not psychotic...just wrong.
- Re: That is quite a question! been there done that
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This is a reply to # 857,085As I see it, an a**hole is just a reckless, careless, selfish jock that wants to throw their weight around, but a narcisistic person is a cold, calculating, scheme inventing, self-enthralled, coward,...scared of who they really are, scared of having to face their conscience and constantly pursuing ways to ignore it and feeling a constant, feverish need not to address reality for that reason (they NEED to always be unreasonable). They will tend to TALK FAST (lest they STOP and see REAL reality, because if they see REAL reality, their conscience is waiting for them). They're not just scared of realizing who they really are, they're scared that other people are like that too (that's why they mistrust, especially those who are actually being nice to them, they think it's a CON scheme). They can't see outside themselves, they consider the world to be full of prey (they are PREDATORS). It just might be possible for a young undeveloped narcissist to change (that's a big MIGHT).
When you said...
"They reacted very strongly, taking extreme stands, trying to overwhelm their tormenters"
This is because they reacted with BITTERNESS and schemed against the world for vengeance (they decided to inflict their pain on others) instead of just ENDURING their plight justly as an unfortunate situation of their own.
They do NEED to always imagine themselves smarter than everybody (especially people who they FEEL are a direct threat to their "top dog" status. If they sense your lack of insecurities and your contented self-sufficiency, they'll be on your case for a "showdown".
When you said,...
"like for more than sixty years"
I thought my family members would grow out of it also, but NO, it is a self-sustaining, perpetual way of life (truly amazing). It seems that the difference in childhood is that,...if you react JUSTLY to your bad situation and simply ABSORB the pain and consequences, then you can become BETTER (heal), but they reacted by becoming BITTER against the world and UNJUSTLY chose to inflict their pain on others, so, as much as I am tempted to feel sorry for them, I have to remember that they decided to be UNJUST (I'm still tempted anyway).
What I was saying about "playing dumb",...
They make a habit out of replying "What do you mean?" to anything you say that is completely self-explanatory in a personal conversation (they are covertly picking your brain to either construct a scheme or simply find out what they can get out of you, there are NO innocent questions, it's amazing, how do they not burn themselves out?). Otherwise, they are SMART/cunning, but "playing dumb" is a ruse.
- Re: That is quite a question! fledgling
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This is a reply to # 857,127Very good comparison, Been there! Right on!
I do wonder, though, where a child would have a chance to 'choose', if they had no comparisons, or alternatives. I know that we expect adults to 'grow', by seeing a bigger slice of life, over the years. Still, 'stuck' really is stuck!
I saw a video the other day that made one point, among others, that we must find a way to 'digest' traumatic experiences, resolve them.
My way to 'resolve' unhappy experiences is to recognize that some people are simply wrong, for whatever reasons...then I choose my associates, and what I can and can't do. 'Forgiveness' has always rankled.
It took me a while to figure out my way...but I finally found it...thank goodness.
Fledgling
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- Re: How do you tell a person they ha... #68716
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This is a reply to # 856,978Every action that the NPD makes is either deliberately or subconsciously motivated to inflict control, dehumanization, and objectification. An *sshole is just somebody (like myself, or anyone else) who makes poor choices in their behavior.
- That is quite a question! fledgling
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- Re: How do you tell a person they ha... #69375
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- Re: How do you tell a person they ha... been there done that
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This is a reply to # 856,593If I understand the situation that you're talking about correctly, there is a group of people that have narcissistic tendencies that are trying to get a grip on their narcissistic personalities (runaway temper, inflated ego, insecurities of fear and mistrust, judgementalism, naysayers/contrary, control freak, etc., all of these characteristics support each other and are inseperable, they are INTEGRAL evil).
Narcissists NEED (not simply WANT) to keep their "empire of evil" fully intact and they FEAR any intrusion, attack/destabilization against anything they think, do, or say. That's why they mistrust everything and must immediately attack any possible intrusion by always being a NAYSAYER and CONTRARY. They always need to be in complete CONTROL by being JUDGEMENTAL and evaluating everything (they criticize, mock, ridicule and belittle everything because they can't allow anything to be "OK", it threatens them, they MUST be naysayers and contrary, it's all defensive). They don't ask "innocent" questions, only busy body nosy "pointed" questions meant to discover the information they need for control. They would appreciate you standing up to them (they'll never tell you, their parents didn't do enough of "standing up to them", they are "spoiled brats" that were neglected of discipline), so they will appreciate being treated like a real human being (they will always admire you for that).
In my experience, the narcisstic personality includes just about every bad quality a human can have. I might have misjudged the situation you're talking about, or the narcissist personality hasn't fully developed yet (not until they find a "favorite"/pet victim). Narcissism is a function (compensation) of an injured conscience and an injured ego (neglected as a child causing egotistical insecurity/low self-esteem and burnt conscience because their everyday behavior is devious and diabolical, CAUTION). If they don't heal now, they will not just create misery for everybody else (and it will get much worse), they will ruin their lives (and not even recognize it because evil fits into their world). You can save their lives and the lives of everyone they will ever meet by confronting them with their NEED to address the situation without letting them get the wrong impression that you mean harm or OPPOSE them. They will always do whatever they can get away with and that is another reason why they ask "pointed" questions (to find out what they might be able to get away with).
Since they're in the habit of "playing dumb" (in the habit of not completing their thoughts), they actually have BECOME "dumb" (old habits die hard) and need to be confrontational, contentious and controversial in order to distract you from realizing that). So, you want to help them, know what you've gotten yourself into.
Only by MUTUAL and SOLID agreement can you help someone like this (and tremendous commitment on your part, but also theirs) and on a case by case basis (meaning it's not recommended for everyone), but if you feel up to it,...God bless you.
If you were to help such a person address their narcisstic tendencies, you would have to:
1) explain to them that you really do care,
2) explain that you now know the secrets of narcissism (since their "secrets" are now exposed, they can no longer be SNEAKY because you're onto them). They used to be "SMART AND CRAFTY" when their world was a secret, but can no longer hide it behind smiles meant to decieve.
3) Prove to them by telling them all of these secrets that you now understand because they (subconsciously) deliberately MAKE themselves [incredibly] stupid by believing that they should always "PLAY DUMB" in order to "get over".
Their favorite strategy is to CAUSE every discussion to become a heated arguement by stirring emotions and being vague in order to cause uncertainty by choosing their words carefully (strategically) and changing ISSUES in order to FRUSTRATE you that the conversation can no longer be productive and reasonable. They do this because they need to destabilize any possible attack/intrusion that threatens their world, but also because "evil" needs an atmosphere of chaos in order to be committed (consider evil an animal that needs to be fed). Evil (of any kind) cannot happen in an atmosphere of peace.
If you explain to them that now YOU KNOW these strategies and secrets, they should soon "give up" all their sneakiness (they will probably "test your commitment to them", the same as a "brat" tests and elicits their parents love, entertain those tests, but expose the fact to them that you are doing it so that THEY REALIZE they no longer have the refuge of "SECRETS" (very important). Ninety nine percent of the time, the ONLY reason EVER for "secrets" is to ENABLE some kind of evil (schemes NEED to be secret). Nothing is NAUGHTY, it's either right or wrong.
Be aware of SEMANTICS (word usage) because they will use ambiguous and vague words to confuse any situation.
- Interesting that our two posts were ... fledgling
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This is a reply to # 857,082...Neither of us having read the other's opinion before we posted.
Been there, I saw many of the same characteristics in the men I wrote about, as you did in your observations.
Except, I saw no one 'play dumb'. In fact, these men were desperate to be 'right'...would go to extremes trying to 'prove' their 'rightness'.
Were they 'narcissists'? Or, were they just 'wrong'...first class *ssholes, who didn't know how to act differently, even if they wanted to?
I have this funny feeling that, as human beings, we need to SEE better ways BEFORE we can adopt them.
Effective, happy living may be a 'monkey see - monkey do' proposition. Individually, we may know that we are goofing it, but haven't yet seen HOW to do better...maybe even doubt our ability to change.
Confrontation may help, but also may just inflame/annoy/hurt, I think. All the 'discipline' and 'confrontation' in the world did not help the family I wrote about...just raised barriers, and separated people permanently.
I remember an old saying, "Softly, softly, catchee monkey."
Fledgling
- Re: Interesting that our two posts w... #68716
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This is a reply to # 857,095Fledgling, your post is right on target! The narcissists and NPD's that I've been exposed to never, ever played dumb - women and men, alike. One gal I knew and considered a dear friend, was so desperate to be "right" that she would take great pains to compose what she called, "...a scathing letter." This practice, to my knowledge, was never abandoned - from committee chairpersons to editors, she spent more time composing these things that anyone I've ever seen. Always, she would believe that her views, opinions, belief systems, etc., could never be argued with.
Children DO need to see other examples - you are so right about that point. I offered my children (by example) a different path of honesty, integrity, hope, faith, etc., and they still opted for the path of destruction. It becomes a choice when all options are on the table and those that lead to healing and a happy life are abandoned.
I thoroughly agree with your opinion on confrontation. In a perfect world, confrotnation would be welcomed - heck, there would be no need for confrontation, right? LOL! No, a narcissist (particularly, NPD) must always be right, even if doing so damages their image. My ex could never speak the truth, even if it was to his own best interest. An example of that was when we were in Family Court and my attorney asked him, "Mr. Jackass, you don't particularly like Francis Williams (a court-appointed counselor that had pegged the ex for what he was with a false name), do you?" He answered, "I like her just fine. I don't have any problem with her." She had written a very damaging report on how he had behaved towards her, me, and our children and it would have been to his credit if he had spoken truth and responded with, "I can't stand her. I think she's intrusive and I have nothing to say to her." But, he didn't. How can a person "...like her just fine..." when the counselor had pegged him in an official document as the abusive bastid that he is?
Crazy, huh?
I opt to walk away from anyone who creates a negative influence in my life - be they family, friends, or coworkers. If I have no choice but to be exposed to them (coworkers, in particular), I keep the interaction to a minimum and try as best as I can to avoid falling into the cesspool that they love to stir up.- Re: Interesting that our two posts w... fledgling
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This is a reply to # 857,892Habits of expression, I think, SoulfulSurvivor.
Like your friend, the letter-writer. She obviously thought it her 'right' and 'duty' to set people 'straight'. And she thought she was 'supposed to'.
We may think we are 'allowed' to behave in certain ways that others are not.
We may even think that our responses are 'appropriate', 'expected', proof of our 'reasonableness' and 'good intentions', when all they are is 'talk to talk'.
By this I mean that we may learn to 'parrot' words and concepts, without really understanding what they mean.
A criminal may learn to mimic his therapist, for example, to appear to be rehabilitated, but not yet understand the concepts behind the therapist's words.
Complicated, eh?
As far as I can see, the best thing to do, when we find that we can't help someone, and that they certainly don't help us, is to leave, as fairly, politely, and as quickly as we can manage.
I didn't invent this procedure...I read it in a book, but everything I've seen leads me to believe it to be best.
The hardest part of the situation, I think, is 'forgiveness', even of oneself...the word rankles so.
I got by the hard feelings by realizing that human beings are sometimes just wrong. Not mean or evil, because no little kid starts out to be evil...just wrong, for whatever reason, and stuck with it...until they realize differently.
That will happen one day, in their own way, or it won't. And we can do nothing to help...except to wish them well.
Golly, I am still realizing stuff about myself, fifty years after incidents!
And, I attach less and less blame to everyone, including me, as the years go by.
Human beings are 'allowed' to be wrong...or we wouldn't have so many opportunities to be wrong!
The trick is in seeing opportunities to be happy. That's lots more fun, and an excellent example to others. It's also easier.
An old saying..."We catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
My best, good SoulfulSurvivor.
Fledgling
- So well said... #68716
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This is a reply to # 860,100What refreshing insight, Fledgling. I agree that some people are just wrong in their behaviors - doesn't necessarily make them a narcissist.
I'm also in total agreement that walking away is a viable option to remove one's Self from negativity - ANY negativity. The gal that I referred to appeared to be so concerned and caring, and she is actually a very angry, bitter, spiteful person, after looking back on the things that she did and the manner in which she did them. I had to turn away without a word, because I had asked her to keep her constant criticisms to herself and she just was incapable or unwilling to do so, even if it was in her own best interest.
Forgiveness - forgiveness was necessary for me, but it may not be appicable to others, I believe. I was listening to this amazing program on NPR, yesterday, on "Talk of the Nation" that I really want transcripts of. It was a discussion on a grass-roots idea that victims of violent crimes actually meet their perpetrators in prison, face-to-face, for dialogue. It's not being met with much enthusiasm from prison officials and it's a shame. At any rate, the woman who was talking spoke so eloquently about forgiveness and that it is not a requirement for victims to forgive. Now, her background as a victim was this: a man broke into her home, tied up her husband, her, and their daughter. The man raped their daughter in front of them and then shot her husband dead. I had to really work at not getting hysterical for this woman's losses - I cannot imagine, in my worst nightmares, what she endured and Survived. For that brave, courageous woman to get up every day and go through the motions of living after having Survived such a horrid, senseless crime makes the term, "forgiveness," seem so ludicrous!
- Wow, Soulful... fledgling
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This is a reply to # 860,154What a story!
It is impossible to imagine how a person might carry on, after such an experience.
You say the program you saw suggested meetings between the perp and the victim?
Golly, wouldn't a person go through a whole list of emotions, before, during, and after attending?!
Maybe that's the whole point. Maybe the process accelerates their 'healing'...helps them grow beyond the event, to carry on...and perhaps helps prevent 'stuckedness'.
You say that the program said 'forgiveness' isn't necessary?
Well, that's a step forward, I think.
I find two thoughts about 'forgiveness'...
...1. The way the word has been used in our world, it sounds as though the victim is being asked to lie down and 'take' any abuse that perps care to dish out...forever...totally against any common sense. And that the perp gets away without having to take responsibility...getting benevolence in return for atrocity.
...2. Or, that in simply saying the word to oneself, even if you don't yet believe it, accelerates the victim's internal healing.
This seems weird, of course, but I've seen, felt, it work in lesser situations.
Somehow the chosen word echoes inside the body and mind, and creates the conditions of well-being, beyond all understanding. A person finds themselves better and better, without all the time-consuming, emotion-provoking, effort of 'thinking it out' and 'working it through'.
In weight management, for example, a picture of ones ideal pasted on the bathroom mirror, helps wonderfully. 'Visualization'.
And I have a sneaky suspicion that ALL the words and meanings that cross our minds have the effect of creating a reality.
Perhaps that's how perpetrators got the way they are...they entertained inappropriate words too often, particularly when they were vulnerable, and ended up skewed in their heads and lives...missing the warmth and inventivness we normally expect from our fellow beings.
I must admit I'd like to turn off the TV, just in case. And home-school my babes, to be careful. Or, to give little ones some armour, of some kind...likely the example of a happy homelife, if it can be managed.
You know, 'fixing' damage is so difficult and confusing, particularly for both the victim and perpetrator, themselves, that many people avoid the question like the plague.
Yet we watch crimes for 'entertainment'! Possibly we all want to know how to be safe. Still, it is sad to see products sold during stories of violence. It's as though advertisers are saying, "Now that we have your attention..."
The greatest tragedy, of course, is that our babies see it all, long before they have the cognitive function to choose.
You must have seen exceptional value in the program about meetings between victim and offender.
Do professionals counsel the participants beforehand...after? Is the meeting 'guided' in any way? What if one of the participants goes off their rocker...or refuses to give the input hoped for?
Could any victim benefit? Or, any perp?
What is the one thing, the best idea, of the concept that we need to know? Does one actually touch the heart of the other?
You seem excited by the ideas you saw. What did you see that gave you hope?
Could those ideas be used to prevent trouble, before the fact?
Forgive me for trying to pick your brain, SoulfulSurvivor...it's just that we need to find the way...for everyone. Every hint counts.
My best,
Fledgling
- The perfect victim is indoctrinated ... been there done that
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This is a reply to # 860,578Forgiveness of each other is seldom useful to anyone but the guilty party, it clears their conscience, validates their evil deed (which is a disservice to them) and prepares the victim to be ACCEPTING of future abuse. If no forgiveness is [simply] GIVEN (and left to be earned instead by showing genuine remorse and self-discipline in not repeating the misdeed), then you will have done the moral thing and prevented not only the perpetrators further deterioration into a hardened criminal (victims and everyone will reap the benefits of that one), but you won't become a "universal martyr", meaning that human nature is that we subconscously enjoy the role of "victim" (we glory in "playing the victim") and will continue to do so everywhere we go. It is a habit that we have to be conscious of. We wish so much not to convict that we allow the perp to forfeit their guilt by letting us absorb it (we circumvent justice and deny justice it's due).
If PROPERLY done (ONLY when genuine remorse is shown), it can be useful in our healing.
In order to understand the contrast of God's forgiveness,...
He will never suffer the CONSEQUENCES (He simply satisfied REQUIREMENTS for us) of a perp's repitition of evil deeds, only victims will, that's why CAUTION is necessary (and an obligation to justice).
We choose to be VICARIOUSLY guilty of THEIR deeds (God bless our little hearts).
- Re: The perfect victim is indoctrina... mickeyblueeyes
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This is a reply to # 860,647To forgive a perpertrator you don't have to actually meet them. Maybe it's something inside you have to say to yourself. Unless the victim makes it clear to the perp face to face that the forgiveness is actually only intended to free themselves (the victim) of that awful, abhorrent and vile ball of toxic emotion that poisons the soul. This will obviously depend on the disposition of the victim involved. We are all different. But really extreme preparation with the right professionals prior to making a move like this is vital. It's a massive task, bubble than anything. Personally I'd be more likely to want to get face to face with them to tell them "you took something from me, all who loved them, would et to know them and ultimately took the biggest gift of all from the loved ones you tortured and murdered. I will not let you take any more from them, from me or anyone else who is affected by what you did. This is why I'm meeting you today, to tell you and to have you stand before me today and see what you have done, to have what you have done recount and go over and over in your mind till the day you draw your last breath. Then my wish is that you Rot in HELL, though that will be too good for you! Goodbye!" That's me, that's how I would deal with it as I'm different I suppose!! Personally any act like that should carry a penalty to which they are taken forthwith on the day of sentence and snuffed out. This way it's final, they paid the price with their life and indeed the world a better place without them. Plus we don't have to pay thousands of pounds a week to keep them locked up or try and rehabilitate them. You cannot rehabilitate MONSTERS!!
- Re: The perfect victim is indoctrina... mickeyblueeyes
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- Not enough info #68716
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This is a reply to # 860,578I didn't have enough information about the program because the interview was nearly over when I turned on the radio, but what I gathered was that it allowed the victims involved to confront their attackers under tightly controlled supervision. There was counseling prior to the meetings, mediation during the meetings, and counseling afterwards, as well.
The main point (and, I agree) was that, once a perp is serving their sentence, the victim ceases to be an issue. If they are forced to talk with the people whom they harmed, they often experience a personal epiphany and the recidivism rate is drastically reduced - a study in California supported this program for quite some time.
The "victim" ceased to be just a memory and became a walking, talking reality. In many cases, compensation was negotiated teaching the convict that they were not only criminally responsible for their actions, but financially, as well.
Perhaps, the hope that I felt was that somewhere, somehow, a perpetrator of violence might find redemption.
For me, I know that the only thing that would ever give me finality where my ex is concerned would be to see him caned and castrated. :)
- The perfect victim is indoctrinated ... been there done that
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- Wow, Soulful... fledgling
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- So well said... #68716
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- Thank you Soulfulsurvivor!!!!!! scry606
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This is a reply to # 857,892You just gave me confirmation of what I have been feeling and telling my husband. When you said,"
I opt to walk away from anyone who creates a negative influence in my life - be they family, friends, or coworkers. If I have no choice but to be exposed to them (coworkers, in particular), I keep the interaction to a minimum and try as best as I can to avoid falling into the cesspool that they love to stir up."
THANK YOU! My mother is a complete NPD fullblown and she sucks the energy out of everyone around her, she tries to pit her kids against each other, manipulate everyone, shes a hypochondirac....literally misses 1-2 days EVERY WEEK with some sort of "sickness" (has diabetes and eats a whole box of chocolate donuts by herself)and she can never complement anyone...she will follow up with an insult. Like when I remodeled my kitchen myself she said "oh it's nice...now all you have to do is fix your front yard and your gate" even the tiniest comments like that she has to stick in a downer. She's divorced for 6 years now, she has no friends, all she does is complain about her coworkers(everything is their fault) (was married to a pervert that abused us and she knew about it and denied it and i was taken into foster care) and then when it is convenient to her she talks about "the F**cker/pervert" as she calls him (when it suits her)
~anyways lately I just had enough of her drama, antics, and negative energy. I don't want my children around it and I am on a quest to undo my childhood damage and heal myself and being around her just makes it worse. She denies everything though. she'll say one thing and then 5 min later she'll act like you are crazy and she has no idea what you are talking about...ITS FREAKY! so i decided to stay away from her/ my husband was saying it wasn't nice to be like that... i told him
she steals my energy and makes me feel crappy....just because she is my mother doesn't mean she gets to treat me like crap. I can choose who I want in my life and I choose people who are positive..people that it is a give and take with...building each other up.....anyways thank you for your comment...I was beginning to doubt myself and finding your post was a certain sign today that I am making the right choice....for me to be healthy I can not be dragged down by her.
Now....any ideas on how to deal with the pains shes caused ?:)
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