Why the focus on abortion, and not I... 
#21676
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In Vitro Fertilization destroys embryos. Abortion usually entails only one fetus/embryo being destroyed, and the abortion is not a pre-planned event. With IVF, many embryos are sacrificed and it is pre-planned with full knowledge that embryos will be created and then destroyed.
With IVF, many human embryos never make to the womb, and many embryos judged to be the "best" are used while the others are destroyed.
Often, several embryos are created to improve chances of pregnancy. It is known before hand that some of these embryos will not make it.
Both abortion and IVF result in destroyed fetuses, but IVF adds active intent to create embryos and pre-knowledge that the destruction of an embryo will occur. At least with abortion, women are not trying to create embryos.
From a Pro-lifer's perspective, IVF is like getting 5 women pregnant to create one pregnancy, and then aborting the other 4 fetuses.
So why do you pro-lifer's focus on abortion but don't talk about IVF?
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- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... judy g
18 y
3,555
MoreThis is a reply to # 710,400Yeah, I have wondered what most anti-abortionists think about IVF in general. Isn't that man playing God? If God wanted a woman to conceive, why IVF?
- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... Atalanta
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
Yeah they never seem to answer this question.
Isn't that man playing God?
the Teri shivo situation was playing god too but they seem to be for that.
So that argument of theirs is totally flawed.
- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... Atalanta
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- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... fes_fsa
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This is a reply to # 710,400i think the point is to create and sustain life. maybe it's a better-luck-next-time thing for the embryos who didn't implant themselves to the uterine wall? it's nothing for them to feel bad about... but then when you get into the subject of the morning-after pill, which makes it so the egg can't attach, they freak. talk about hipocrisy! the anti-abortion crowd doesn't think twice when a baby dies from a miscarriage, they don't even think of the idea that the miscarriage might have been self induced (herbal abortions?). - Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... #42407
18 y
3,694
MoreThis is a reply to # 710,400Total hypocrisy. Notice how the No-Choice crowd doesn't even answer?
I personally think IVF is wrong because it's like "playing God".
Also I think that it's really cruel and selfish if a couple tries and the woman cannot get pregnant that they resort to things like IVF. There are so many unwanted kids to adopt, but some people just want "a baby of their own" so bad.
For what?
It's all for themselves.
"I want, I want, I want, I want a baby that looks just like me/us!"
I think that's incredibly selfish.
Also the No-Choicers want all these thousands of babies to be born, even by IVF (hey the more, the merrier!) but they don't give a hoot about a child after it's born. Especially after it gets out of the cutesy-baby stage they could care less.
And they certainly could care less about a pregnant woman. They have already demonstrated that.- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... #2974
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This is a reply to # 710,420Instead of IVF they aren't they forced to adopt all these babies that the No-choicers want to force women to have? - Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... Atalanta
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
I think that it's really cruel and selfish if a couple tries and the woman cannot get pregnant that they resort to things like IVF.
Well you explain why you think it's selfish, though I disagree. But you never say why it's cruel?
There is nothing selfish in wanting your own child (Biology programed us that way). I have only met one coupe who had their baby IVF. They also have an adoped daughter as well. Selfish? I don't think so. What's selfish is forcing people to have kids who don't want them to further their agenda and then call people who do IVF selfish becasue they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.
- Re: What Agenda? #42407
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This is a reply to # 710,441The cruel part? I think it's cruel to focus on wanting your own child so bad when for some reason God or Nature doesn't want you to have one, and THEN not adopting a needy child INSTEAD, if you want a child that bad. It's cruel to children who are already in need.
Sure IVF is selfish. Self-centered, whatever you want to call it. Again, if for some reason someone is not meant to have a child the natural way, then go forcing it because they want a child of their own SO BAD. They are thinking of themselves.
Are people thinking of the child when they want to have one THAT BAD that looks like them, bad enough to go forcing the issue? No, they're thinking of themselves.
Think about it, it makes sense. They're thinking only of THEMSELVES and what THEY want, not the child. I don't care if it's biological or not. You can disagree all you want, but I'm a mother, and because I am a mother I understand. ARE YOU?
And what's up with this statement?:
<<<"What's selfish is forcing people to have kids who don't want them to further their agenda and then call people who do IVF selfish becasue they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.">>>
WTF Atalanta??? Did you FLIPPIN' FORGET that I'm on the Pro-Choice side???
- Re: What Agenda? Atalanta
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
<<<"What's selfish is forcing people to have kids who don't want them to further their agenda and then call people who do IVF selfish becasue they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.">>>
WTF Atalanta??? Did you FLIPPIN' FORGET that I'm on the Pro-Choice side???
Actually I didn't know what side you were on becasue I just don't memorize #, but that's not the issue at all. Where in that paragraph do I say that is what you believe? I was making a general statement, bringing the conversation back to abortion (hence the name of the forum and the fact that the mods love to delete my messages if I don't mention it in the post) so I think your WTF is uncalled for.
Since you are a mother I don't think you could possibly understand what it would be like if you couldn't have children of your own. (Unless you can't and adopted them, I donno)
The way you are talking it sounds like anyone who has a child of their own is selfish which they are becasue they wanted a child of their own. SHouldn't poeple who can have children adopt the unwanted ones first? Why should they be excluded? Isn't that the way it should work? Why are people having babies when there are plenty of ones that can be adopted?? This shouldn't only apply to people who use IVF but everyone!
Conclusion: Everyone who's ever had and or wanted a biological child is selfish and crul for the same reason you state.
(You know there are philosophies that work on the basis that everything we do it selfish and in a way it's true. it's selfish to have a biological kid becuse there are others out there. But You know it's also selfish to adopt that kid becasue it will make the person who adopted feel good about themselves for adopting. It's selfish to do somehting just so it will make you feel good.)- Re: What Agenda? #42407
18 y
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This is a reply to # 710,444<<<"Where in that paragraph do I say that is what you believe">>>
Okay, you said to me: <<<"What's selfish is forcing people to have kids who don't want them to further their agenda and then call people who do IVF selfish becasue they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.">>>
With this statement I felt attacked.
The only person that said they thought IVF was selfish was me.
You directed this statement at me, did you not?
Since I am Pro-Choice this doesn't apply to me so yes this IS an issue and I felt attacked, so a WTF was DEFINITELY called for.
I would try to remember your fellow posters on the board so maybe things like this wouldn't happen, because it feels like you lashed out at me. Why lash out at me just because my opinion about IVF is different? At least I'm not forcing it on you.
<<<"Conclusion: Everyone who's ever had and or wanted a biological child is selfish and crul for the same reason you state.">>>
In my opinion you are being a bit far fetched here. For some reason what I posted about IVF struck a nerve inside of you. Maybe you should ask yourself why.
<<<"(You know there are philosophies that work on the basis that everything we do it selfish and in a way it's true.">>>
This was my point about IVF. People that go an extreme of false means to have a baby of their own when they can't concieve are just thinking of their own desires. They're really not thinking of that child that they're going to create.
Every woman that goes through the "biological clock" is the same way. "I want a baby" "I want children". It may be biological but it's certainly not a selfless feeling.
I am assuming that you have no children. Maybe someday after you have a child you may understand what I mean, but then again maybe you won't.
- Re: What Agenda? Atalanta
18 y
3,705
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
With this statement I felt attacked.
The only person that said they thought IVF was selfish was me.
You directed this statement at me, did you not?
Since I am Pro-Choice this doesn't apply to me so yes this IS an issue and I felt attacked, so a WTF was DEFINITELY called for.
Well, it wasn’t directed at you, really, and if you don’t want to believe that then go ahead and curse. I actually went back over it when I first wrote it and deleted words which would make it apply to you because I didn’t know whether you pro life or choice. It was just a statement to tie it to abortion and give an example of selfishness. In my head I was not planning an attack. It wasn’t pertaining to anyone, but you don’t want to accept that because you are set on flaming up at me. Fine. I really don’t care.
I would try to remember your fellow posters on the board so maybe things like this wouldn't happen, because it feels like you lashed out at me. Why lash out at me just because my opinion about IVF is different? At least I'm not forcing it on you.
I don’t feel like I lashed out at you at all.
In my opinion you are being a bit far fetched here. For some reason what I posted about IVF struck a nerve inside of you. Maybe you should ask yourself why.
First off. Me? You’re the one cursing here and using CAPS which represent yelling. So I think you have our rolls reversed here about who’s nerves are struck where. Second. I love how everyone pretends to be a psychologist on this site. Third I feel like you are thinking like the pro-lifers think with that comment. You group everyone who has ever used IVF into one slim category of being selfish, when you don’t know anybody’s story. You are being judgmental without considering people’s emotions or livelihood in the situations that occur.
They're really not thinking of that child that they're going to create.
This is beyond wrong. They are only thinking of the child they will create.
Every woman that goes through the "biological clock" is the same way. "I want a baby" "I want children". It may be biological but it's certainly not a selfless feeling.
There is nothing wrong about it. And they are thinking about the child. Lots actually. Like I said before. Every action can be taken to be selfish. And honestly I don’t see the difference in “selfishness” (as you put it) of women who can bear children without help then those who can’t.
I am assuming that you have no children. Maybe someday after you have a child you may understand what I mean, but then again maybe you won't.
I’m assuming you gave birth to your children, so I don’t assume you’ll ever understand what it’s like not to be able to bare children when you really want to.
- Re: FYI, #42407
18 y
3,569
This is a reply to # 710,507caps usually don't represent yelling for me on a board such as curezone, they represent accentuating a point, so you were wrong there.
It seemed as if you accused me of being an Anti-Abortionist because of the way your sentence was phrased, and you yourself even admitted that you don't remember any particular posters. Your statement <<<"...call people who do IVF selfish becasue they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that">>> was what I would call a very unfriendly statement directed at me. Looks like lashing out to me. Sorry if you don't see it.
So I was not wrong in questioning your post.
As far as the "cursing" thing, I would get off the "playing innocent" role, as if you've never used cursing abbreviations on curezone yourself!
I have seen you say both BS and WTF which is no big deal to me, but you made a big deal out of that issue in my post in order to make me appear unreasonable to others and to make yourself look right.
In regards to the subject we were discussing, I am not judgemental, I am only stating fact. I feel you blew my statements way out of proportion. I don't agree with what you say about IVF and my opinion won't change.
I believe because you don't have any children of your own is the reason why you don't understand, and are on the defensive about the subject. That's your issue not mine.
I realize that going on and on about this won't get us any further on this subject, but I just had to give an FYI.- fyi Atalanta
18 y
3,557
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
caps usually don't represent yelling for me on a board such as curezone, they represent accentuating a point, so you were wrong there.
Well I’m glad in your head it doesn’t represent yelling, but it’s universal language for online forums and chats to represent yelling.
Sorry if you don't see it.
Sorry that you see it.
As far as the "cursing" thing, I would get off the "playing innocent" role, as if you've never used cursing abbreviations on curezone yourself!
I have seen you say both BS and WTF which is no big deal to me, but you made a big deal out of that issue in my post in order to make me appear unreasonable to others and to make yourself look right.
I never said it was bad to use curses. I don’t really care. Where are you getting it from? You sure are making up a lot of stuff here. I was just showing you that it seemed to have struck a louder chord in you because you were the one using harsh words that come out in frustration. Not I. I was just showing that to you. I Never said that I don’t curse. And I never said it was a big deal. I just wanted to show you who’s chord got stuck louder. (Yours).
In regards to the subject we were discussing, I am not judgmental, I am only stating fact. I feel you blew my statements way out of proportion. I don't agree with what you say about IVF and my opinion won't change.
How is it not judgmental if you call all people that do IVF selfish? You are judging them and labeling them as such. That’s not going to change fine, but yes it’s a very judgmental comment.
I believe because you don't have any children of your own is the reason why you don't understand, and are on the defensive about the subject. That's your issue not mine.
I know many people who have children and don’t believe IVF is selfish. I donno where you draw these conclusions. Like I said before I believe you gave birth to your children, a selfish act if I am to think like you. How could you possible know what it’s like to not be able to conceive? You have not bothered to answer me that. And no, it’s your issue if you label people not mine.
- Re: FYI #42407
18 y
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This is a reply to # 710,544Jeez Atalanta,
You saying <<<"I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.">>> about me for no reason is just plan old rude! And that was an angry statement, and your rudeness and anger was the ONLY thing that struck a chord in me! And you refuse to even apologize for it. End of THAT story!
And as far as the IVF YES people only do it for selfish reasons. And yes, even I had my child for a selfish reason at the time because I wanted a child that looked like my husband and I, without thinking of what any outcome would be for my child. Why do you think I can recognize it in others???
And it's not judging ANYTHING by saying that people doing IVF are thinking of themselves (I am not thinking about people's "goodness" or Religion) it's just a FACT of life.
No, I do not know what it's like not to be able to concieve. But if I did and I grieved over it, I would only be thinking of myself.
I'm sorry you cannot have children. Maybe it's happened for a reason.
- fyi Atalanta
18 y
3,621
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
Jeez 4240,
You saying <<<"I see selfishness, arrogance, and hippocracy in that.">>> about me for no reason is just plan old rude! And that was an angry statement, and your rudeness and anger was the ONLY thing that struck a chord in me! And you refuse to even apologize for it. End of THAT story!
Well by now I told you three times that comment was not directed at you. So this back and forth is at the caliber of a SS conversation.
You took that sentence just now out of context. Here it is again:
What's selfish is forcing people to have kids who don't want them to further their agenda and then call people who do IVF selfish because they don't take all the unwanted kids. I see selfishness, arrogance, and hypocrisy in that.
Since you are pro choice this obviously is not about you. I added that paragraph to make a comment about abortion. Somehow you don’t want to see that. I am not going to apologize for saying it because it was not written in that intent. I am sorry that you see it that way and cannot get my explanation for the fourth time now, but I am not sorry that I wrote it. Maybe I should have put a paragraph space between that comment but somehow I think that would not have made a difference.
And as far as the IVF YES people only do it for selfish reasons. And yes, even I had my child for a selfish reason at the time because I wanted a child that looked like my husband and I, without thinking of what any outcome would be for my child. Why do you think I can recognize it in others???
I am confused. So you admit that people that give birth are equally selfish as people who use IVF? If so then we agree.
If you are saying that just because you didn’t think about the child means everyone doesn’t think about the future child then I know you are mistaken. I don’t think you can recognize everything in others, especially when you don’t even know the people.
And it's not judging ANYTHING by saying that people doing IVF are thinking of themselves (I am not thinking about people's "goodness" or Religion) it's just a FACT of life.
Just because you only thought about yourself, doesn’t mean that’s what everyone does. And yes it still is judging, because you don’t know what they are thinking.
No, I do not know what it's like not to be able to conceive. But if I did and I grieved over it, I would only be thinking of myself.
That’s so easy to say. You’re sounding like the pro-lifers do when they tell everyone it’s so easy to carry the fetus then give the child up for adoption or raise it. You have no idea what you’d feel or do, and you never will.
I'm sorry you cannot have children. Maybe it's happened for a reason.
Where did you get that from? I never said that. I donno if I can or cant because I never tried. Maybe people who were born through IVF happened for a reason too.
- Re: Whatever... #42407
18 y
3,575
This is a reply to # 710,547to most of what you say, I'm still not judging anyone, but I cannot change your own opinion, and I won't change mine.
<<<"You have no idea what you’d feel or do, and you never will.">>>
If you put it that way, you have no idea either! So I don't understand why you are attacking my statements. At least I have experienced some pretty severe situations in my life and have come close to not having a child, so making a call like this on your part might be a bit ignorant.
I am only giving my opinions on IVF based on the fact that IVF is an unnatural and forced way to concieve. No, not ALL people that give birth in a natural way are self-centered like people that do IVF. I just believe that going through the extreme of IVF to have a child is sort of going against the grain of life, so to speak. It's forcing the issue. For WHO and what? That's just MY opinion.
I don't think we're getting anywhere here so I don't know what else to say.- Re: Whatever... Atalanta
18 y
3,550
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
<<<"You have no idea what you’d feel or do, and you never will.">>>
If you put it that way, you have no idea either! So I don't understand why you are attacking my statements. At least I have experienced some pretty severe situations in my life and have come close to not having a child, so making a call like this on your part might be a bit ignorant.
I never said I did, unlike you. I am only disputing your statement becasue you take a group of people and make a judement about them. I don't care who the group is or what the judement is I would still have the same thing to say to you.
This conversation has nothing to do w/ life experiences, which apparently you have more of, becuase now you assume you know me.
That's your biggest problem you seem to think you know everyone and how everyone thinks. To futher my example on your judgmentalness (donno if that's a word) you write:
No, not ALL people that give birth in a natural way are self-centered like people that do IVF. So now not only people who do IVF selfish but also self centered.
I just want you to realize how you are quick to catagorize people and write them off.
I also have a question for you regarding abortion.
I am only giving my opinions on IVF based on the fact that IVF is an unnatural and forced way to concieve.
Well isn't abortion an unnatural and forced way to not be pregnant. Are all the people who have abortions also self centered and selfish?- Re: Whatever... #42407
18 y
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This is a reply to # 710,549Lol, I knew the Abortion issue would come up even though giving birth and terminating a pregnancy are opposites.
I guess depending on the person and their situation, Abortion could be a self-centered act. Again it's the woman's choice to do what they want. Spontaneous Abortions occure (miscarriages) but you cannot have a spontaneous IVF. So Abortion is not quite so unnatural as IVF. I just believe that bringing a child into the world in a precarious situation is more self-centered than not bringing a child into the world at all. Sometimes life on earth can be worse than not being born.
And I'm sorry, I just think that concieving a child in a test-tube, petri-dish or whatever, is self-centered. But it doesn't matter because I am not forcing anyone to do anything.
Oh, and I'm not "writing anyone off".
<<<"That's your biggest problem you seem to think you know everyone and how everyone thinks. To futher my example on your judgmentalness (donno if that's a word) you write:
"No, not ALL people that give birth in a natural way are self-centered like people that do IVF."
So now not only people who do IVF selfish but also self centered.">>>
Calm down! I'm talking about the act of IVF itself being a selfish act, NOT EVERYTHING that IVF people do. And self-centered and selfish are the same. The term selfish is just taken more harshly by some people, like you.
- Re: Whatever... Atalanta
18 y
3,598
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
And self-centered and selfish are the same.
Wrong. SS is self-centered, but I don't think everything he does is selfish. All people are selfish in some way or another, but not all people are self centered.
The term selfish is just taken more harshly by some people, like you.
Where did you come up with this? Again telling me how I feel. I actually think being self centered is worse then being selfish. Selfishenss is very relative and usually dosne't apply to all aspescts of someone's life. Whereas a Self-centerd person is consumen with it.- Re: Okay... #42407
18 y
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This is a reply to # 710,551looking at the Dictionary word for word I see how you say selfish and self-centered are different.
I guess people that do IVF are different from each other in the way that some people can be totally self-centered, or with some people just the act alone itself can be selfish. That's pretty much what I meant when I said selfish. I only meant the act itself.
Anyway, are we done arguing yet?;)
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- Re: Whatever... #42407
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- fyi Atalanta
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- Re: FYI #42407
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- fyi Atalanta
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- Re: FYI, #42407
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- Re: What Agenda? Atalanta
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- Re: What Agenda? #42407
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- Re: What Agenda? Atalanta
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- Re: What Agenda? #42407
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- Re: Why the focus on abortion, and n... #2974
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- I guess pro-lifers really don't talk... #21676
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- Re: I guess pro-lifers really don't ... #42407
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This is a reply to # 710,486I noticed that.
I guess they're for Reproductive Slavery of ALL kinds!!!
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