My theory on the liver flush….I hope... 
Mark
22 y
5,834
Hello,
I’m posting this information on the Liver Flush in order to gather more information about the process and to disclose what my research has uncovered. I have performed my 1st flush just over a week and a half ago. I now have some mild pain on the right side of my ribs. I passed approx. 60 stones on my first flush.
Overview of the Liver/Bile/Gull bladder system:
Special cells in the liver produce bile. Bile is composed of bile acids, salts, cholesterol, and waste products. The bile collects in a series of ducts. The network of ducts join larger ducts until one large duct exits the liver. This duct is 10-12 mm in diameter and all internal ducts branch off of 2 larger ducts that go to each lobe of the liver and get smaller as they branch out even farther (like tree branches).
The gull bladder is a small organ (about 3” long and 1” wide) that sits below the liver on the right side of the chest just below/at the rib cage. It has a duct that meets the liver duct at a “Y”. The duct it named the common duct after they intersect. The common duct runs into the upper part of the small intestine.
Bile collects in the liver, runs through the ducts, and about 50% of it goes into the gull bladder and the rest is held in the common duct or empties into the small intestine. The purpose of the gull is to concentrate the bile by removing water from it making it more potent.
Bile is needed to help digest fats. When you eat fats, a hormone is released that makes the gull and the common duct contract to squeeze out the bile to meet the food leaving the stomach. The bile acts to digest the fat so that it will be absorbed in the intestine.
The average adult produces close to 1 liter of bile per day (range from 400 to 800 ml). When you are fasting, bile collects in the gull bladder and common duct waiting to be released when you eat fats.
Bile is the only transport mechanism to rid the body of excess cholesterol. Cholesterol is not soluble in water, which means it does not dissolve in water. It is however fat-soluble so it dissolves in fats and fatty acids. Bile contains extra cholesterol produced in the liver or by consumption. The bile acids (and phospho-lipids) keep the cholesterol in a liquid state in the bile. During digestion some cholesterol is re-absorbed in the gut and some is expelled in the feces. This is how the body gets rid of extra cholesterol.
The vast majority of the bile acids (95% +) are re-absorbed by the ileum (a part of the intestine). The ileum has a direct blood flow back to the liver and the bile acids are recycled constantly to the liver to start the process over again.
My theory of the formation of cholesterol gull stones:
The stones that one gets from the Liver Flush are no doubt made of cholesterol. This is true. I believe how and where they are formed is misunderstood.
When the flush is performed, one consumes Epsom Salt to dilate the bile ducts. I have not verified any validity to this other than magnesium has a relaxing effect on smooth muscle tissue, which means it would relax the gull and duct muscles. This is accepted as fact of this mineral on muscle tissue.
Then, after eating a very light meal you fast for the rest of the day (many fast for longer). The liver still produces bile during this time and it stores it in the gull and bile ducts. So you are essentially filling up the gull bladder with bile during the fast.
You then drink a massive dose of olive oil (fat) and lemon or grapefruit juice. I still do not know what effect the lemon/grapefruit has in this flush. The olive oil however, once in the stomach, turns on a massive release of the hormone that makes the gull and bile ducts contract. You get a MAJOR spasm from these organs from a massive dose of the hormone. This spasm can be felt in some people during the flush. I believe that this is not a good idea as the gull and common ducts will contract like they never have before, possibly causing some damage to some tissues. Getting a huge dose of any hormone will cause a severe reaction in the body that can be negative. The contractions spill out a large volume of bile into the small intestine to meet the fat and help you digest it.
After doing the flush myself, my bowel movements had oil in them. This was obviously un-digested olive oil that made the entire trip through my gut. My first bowel movement produced only a few stones. They were the green ones about the size of a pea and they floated on the surface. My second produced many stones, 50 or more about the same size.
How the stones are formed:
When there is a lack of bile acids in bile, the cholesterol in the bile is no longer able to stay in a liquid state and it precipitates out into “gobs” of cholesterol. I believe that during the flush there is a significant loss of bile acids from the system. Remember, this is a recycling type of system from the ileum to the liver. If during the flush you do not re-absorb the bile acids through the intestinal wall, and you end up with a liver that produces new bile that is lacking sufficient bile acids to keep the cholesterol in the liver in its liquid state. Therefore, the cholesterol “gobs” form in the bile ducts in the liver and in the gull bladder. I believe that the bile acids are not re-absorbed by the ileum because the undigested oil coats the lining of the intestines preventing them from being re-absorbed properly in the system. Olive oil coats things very nicely and will coat the lining of the intestines making it impossible to absorb anything or much of anything in the gut. Thus you pass the bile acids beyond the ileum without re-absorption and this creates a deficiency of bile acids in this system, which depends on re-circulation the work properly.
The stones form overnight primarily in the liver and the ducts growing in size as the move along. They then dump into the intestine, as your liver naturally wants to get rid of them. They then show up 1-2 days later in your loose stools. It takes the system at least that long to build up enough bile acids again to keep the cholesterol in a liquid state which keeps the “gobs” of cholesterol from forming.
So, the flush gets out real cholesterol stones, mostly stones that the flush itself has created due to a lack of bile acids in the system. This is why people constantly get out stones when doing the flush, because they are making them in the process. One post on this board was that someone has counted over 31,000 stones in 15 or so flushes. That is because they make them in the liver every time they do the flush. I’ll bet that folks that flush a lot lower their cholesterol due to elimination and not a lot of re-absorption.
Some simple facts are this, if the liver puts out up to 1 liter of bile in a day and if your liver was all stuffed up with stones, then you would have some serious major health problems and your liver would not last long with a backup like that. You would most likely get acute symptoms in several days to weeks if your bile flow was blocked much at all. Case in point, a friend’s baby just had biliary artresis (where there is no flow of bile from the liver) and this baby was in ICU in just a few weeks. Her liver was green/black from bile backup and she was very sick. One of the photos on this site shows a GREEN liver section with green stones lying in some ducts. This photo is of a severely diseased liver (so much so it turned green with bile pigments). These stones formed because the liver was not functioning properly and with a lack of bile acids, these stones showed up the in the diseased organ which is normal in this case.
People claim to have passed very large stones that were several inches. This is a physical impossibility. The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch them like that, you ARE going to feel a lot of pain. Just like an acute attack if one gets stuck in the gull opening. The ducts will stretch, but not that big. If you are getting stones this large, they are created in the small intestine. How? Simple. The large dump of bile that is lacking in bile acids will precipitate large gobs of cholesterol in the intestine just like in the liver. The mixing itself of the bile with the contents of the stomach will dilute the bile acids and cause this to happen. It is impossible to pass a very large stone through those ducts! It’s like trying to jamb a basketball through your garden hose. You would have severe pain just like in acute gull attacks.
Now I do not deny that this flush can be helpful. If you are having indigestion problems (especially after eating a large fatty meal) your gull may be full of stones, which will not allow a lot of bile to be discharged when necessary. This can lead to digestion problems, especially when eating fatty meals. The flush in this case may help clear things out. However you must realize that you will also create stones in the liver by doing the flush. The flush may also get out calcified stones, which would be a good thing to get rid of. Doing the flush over and over again is not necessary, as you will always get out some stones as the flush produces them. Some say that they do some flushes and get no stones. This is possible as either the cholesterol in the liver is low (with the case of vegans or in the case of frequent flushers) or there are enough bile acids to keep the cholesterol from precipitating out of the bile. Also consider that cholesterol will reabsorb in the intestine and that if your intestines are not totally coated with olive oil, you will dissolve some of the stones and they will be reabsorbed. Not to mention the effect of bacteria on the stones and what the oil and juice does to the bacterial flora. Put the stones in a jar wet and see what happens to them. They dissolve rapidly due to bacteria breaking them down. This would normally happen in the gut, but the oil probably kills much of the bacteria there too.
If the oil / lemon does kill a lot of bacteria, then one should also consider a pro-biotic so as to not develop a yeast infection. (the oil probably kills the yeast too however). These bacteria not only aid in the formation of the secondary bile acids, they help digest cholesterol. If you get some gut problem after doing the flush, it’s probably because you have effectively killed a lot of flora in the intestines. This is why the Epsom Salt is a laxative; it kills the bacteria in the gut also.
After doing the flush, I know that my guts were coated with the oil. I could just “feel” it in my colon and could see it in my stools.
Now lets consider this, I believe that God created man and he has the blueprint of our bodies. He made the system to work a certain way and it does its job perfectly well in the average person. If the liver were to be blocked even to 50% flow, you would know it, as you would become ill really fast. That is why stone blockage in the common duct requires immediate surgery. Because the blockage backs up the bile in the liver and the person becomes very sick in only a few days to weeks.
Also, the volume of stones that people get out is a distinct factor that proves the flush makes the stones readily in the liver. If you get out say 1000 stones that are pea sized (5mm average), this is about 17 feet of duct that you would need to have in your liver. If you liver were roughly 1 foot long, you would have 17 ducts the size of your pinky finger running through the liver. Look at a cross section of a liver, the ducts are not that big or numerous and most “ducts” you see in a cross section of the liver and not ducts at all, they are blood vessels. You do not have 17 feet of 5mm duct running through out your liver and therefore it would be impossible to store that many stones in the liver. If you take the volume of the 5mm stones and add them all up, the gull could not accommodate that many even though it will stretch.
Now the gull can fill with stones and get quite full, but that does not block the bile from the liver and therefore you have no acute symptoms. Calcified stones only form in the gull when its not working properly or a stone gets to big to leave and collects calcium etc from the bile. A normal gull stone that does not leave the gull for a long period of time may calcify just by natural means. Many drugs (birth control pills also) cause the body to dump unusual amount of minerals in the blood. These minerals find their way into the bile and add themselves to stones in the gull. Thus they calcify over time. If you have calcified stones, your body is taking minerals from your bones in an attempt to balance some bio-chemical process that is malfunctioning.
In conclusion, the flush may be a good gull bladder flush if your gull is full of stones or you have calcified stones, but its my theory that the stones in the oil/juice flush are created due to a lack of bile acids in the bile because the oil coats the intestines and prevents re-absorption of the bile acids in the system (ileum). You excrete the bile acids with your loose stools and the system then lacks the ability to keep the cholesterol from the liver in a liquid state in the bile and cholesterol stones precipitate out as a result. The system recovers in a day or two, the intestines are cleared of the oil film, and the normal bacteria in the intestine flourish again and you no longer get stones produced (in any quantity). I’m sure that the liver does produce these stones all by itself on occasion, but you will almost never see them in normal feces because they are hidden or they were broken down in the intestines from normal processes there.
Suffice to say, this flush could cause a problem in the liver because if the bile acids are to low and small gobs of cholesterol form in the liver ducts they could cause blockages. These blockages however will go away by natural means in healthy persons because the bile acids that make contact with them will re-dissolve the cholesterol stones and free things up. The liver is smart, and will unclog itself naturally. God himself designed it to work that way.
I know people seem to get wonderful health benefits from doing this, as I felt great the day after my flush. Unfortunately, I realized that my day of “euphoria” was just a high because I though I just cleaned out by liver and really helped myself out. Truth is I now feel the same or worst because of my dull pain. The high was a psychological thing for me and may be for others. It gives you a great feeling to think that you are really assisting your liver and your health and people get addicted to this feeling, I too felt it when I saw my stones.
Now as for the real benefits of this flush and all the posts on it really helping people. I believe there is a possibility that maybe people that do the flush get some benefit from the oil, say omega 3 or 6 fatty acids (or some other nutrient in the oil), increased fat soluble vitamins, vitamin C boost from juice, the fact that fasting alone can make you feel better, and possibly better digestion from clearing the gull and enabling it to work better. This alone can increase digestion. Poor digestion is linked to allergies because large un-digested fats and protein strains get into the blood stream and cause allergic symptoms. If you increase bile in the digestive process, it makes for more complete digestion and absorption of nutrients and you avoid the absorption of partially or un-digested fats, proteins and other nutrients which can cause problems (allergies).
If you have any question or would like me to reference my information set forth here, please e-mail me at pushner@aol.com.
As for my gull pain that I now have from the flush, I believe that it is due to strain on the muscles and connective tissues around my gull and bile ducts due to the massive abnormal contractions that the oil had produced and that the pain will subside with time. The Epsom Salt may have also caused some irritation because my stomach (left side) gets some odd pain now too.
I apologize if this post has a negative effect on this site in any way. This is a wonderful site and has lots of useful information and I commend the people who created and maintain it. We all need to take our own health in our own hands with the condition of the current health system. I just want to share my information and theories with everyone and will continue to investigate this issue. Please feel free to e-mail me with feedback
Sincerely,
Mark D P
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flu... John Cullison
22 y
4,023
This is a reply to # 65,535I'll just add comments after the relevant quotes.
You might also want to note that cholesterol is the basic building block at the beginning of a bunch of different chemical cycles which produce hormones (including, say, testosterone and estrogen)... Cholesterol isn't a waste product. It's a vitally important substance.
(Let's see... the medical establishment is all the rage about how bad cholesterol is... and yet it's needed for hormones... and then we have all these women running around with "hormone problems"... coincidence? I think not.)
> My theory of the formation of cholesterol gull stones:
> The stones that one gets from the Liver Flush are no doubt made of
> cholesterol. This is true. I believe how and where they are
> formed is misunderstood.
> When the flush is performed, one consumes Epsom Salt to dilate the
> bile ducts. I have not verified any validity to this other than
> magnesium has a relaxing effect on smooth muscle tissue, which
> means it would relax the gull and duct muscles. This is accepted
> as fact of this mineral on muscle tissue.
OK. You're conceding this point... it is kinda hard to see this occur without some sort of intestinal camera. On the other hand, I can actually feel... weird... things... going... on... down there after I drink the Epsom Salts .
> Then, after eating a very light meal you fast for the rest of the
> day (many fast for longer). The liver still produces bile during
> this time and it stores it in the gull and bile ducts. So you are
> essentially filling up the gull bladder with bile during the fast.
OK. I'll let this one slide. Neither side argues this point.
> You then drink a massive dose of olive oil (fat) and lemon or
> grapefruit juice. I still do not know what effect the
> lemon/grapefruit has in this flush. The olive oil however, once
> in the stomach, turns on a massive release of the hormone that
> makes the gull and bile ducts contract. You get a MAJOR spasm
> from these organs from a massive dose of the hormone. This spasm
> can be felt in some people during the flush. I believe that this
> is not a good idea as the gull and common ducts will contract like
> they never have before, possibly causing some damage to some
> tissues. Getting a huge dose of any hormone will cause a severe
> reaction in the body that can be negative. The contractions spill
> out a large volume of bile into the small intestine to meet the
> fat and help you digest it.
You believe that this is not a good idea. How nice to know. You mention that you feel pain afterwards... yet neither I nor my wife does.
Have you ever watched an infant's head crown during birth? Personally, I think it's a pretty serious design flaw in the human body, but, hey, at least the body *can* stretch that much.
Also, I have to argue with your use of the word "huge". You're suggesting that we're dumping, oh, I dunno, liters of some hormone or something. The dose ain't all that huge.
> After doing the flush myself, my bowel movements had oil in them.
> This was obviously un-digested olive oil that made the entire trip
> through my gut. My first bowel movement produced only a few
> stones. They were the green ones about the size of a pea and they
> floated on the surface. My second produced many stones, 50 or
> more about the same size.
The guys at the lab got over being grossed out about feces years ago.
> How the stones are formed:
> When there is a lack of bile acids in bile, the cholesterol in the
> bile is no longer able to stay in a liquid state and it
> precipitates out into “gobs” of cholesterol. I believe that
> during the flush there is a significant loss of bile acids from
> the system. Remember, this is a recycling type of system from the
> ileum to the liver. If during the flush you do not re-absorb the
> bile acids through the intestinal wall, and you end up with a
> liver that produces new bile that is lacking sufficient bile acids
> to keep the cholesterol in the liver in its liquid state.
> Therefore, the cholesterol “gobs” form in the bile ducts in the
> liver and in the gull bladder. I believe that the bile acids are
> not re-absorbed by the ileum because the undigested oil coats the
> lining of the intestines preventing them from being re-absorbed
> properly in the system. Olive oil coats things very nicely and
> will coat the lining of the intestines making it impossible to
> absorb anything or much of anything in the gut. Thus you pass the
> bile acids beyond the ileum without re-absorption and this creates
> a deficiency of bile acids in this system, which depends on re-
> circulation [to] work properly.
This is an interesting hypothesis, but consider that in your scenario, the bile salts are needed *later on* to make new bile, and the gobbing to which you refer would be occurring in an already-purged liver (and an already flushed gall bladder), which no longer needs to push out more bile, since it already did so (remember, hours and hours pass before anyone eats anything else after the oil has been consumed). If the bile salts go unabsorbed, that's fine, but that merely means that the cholesterol gobs are now sitting in the liver, blocking up the works. The gobs you hypothesize aren't in the intestine to be forming stones. In fact, in this scenario, it is likely that the liver would be creating "bile" lacking both cholesterol (which is now gumming up the works since it can't go back into solution with the now very watery "bile") and the bile salts.
> The stones form overnight primarily in the liver and the ducts
> growing in size as the move along. They then dump into the
> intestine, as your liver naturally wants to get rid of them. They
> then show up 1-2 days later in your loose stools. It takes the
> system at least that long to build up enough bile acids again to
> keep the cholesterol in a liquid state which keeps the “gobs” of
> cholesterol from forming.
Again, your timing is way off here. First, my stones come out the following day, often before I've managed to eat anything else which would cause the "un-re-salted bile" or "cholesterol gobs" from being pushed out of the liver, let alone out of the liver and through the entire intestinal tract.
> So, the flush gets out real cholesterol stones, mostly stones that
> the flush itself has created due to a lack of bile acids in the
> system. This is why people constantly get out stones when doing
> the flush, because they are making them in the process. One post
> on this board was that someone has counted over 31,000 stones in
> 15 or so flushes. That is because they make them in the liver
> every time they do the flush. I’ll bet that folks that flush a
> lot lower their cholesterol due to elimination and not a lot of re-absorption.
I'm sorry, but even older texts describe the process of forming gall stones as requiring a long time. If you can show an instance of a genuine gall stone being formed in the space of a day, then your claim might have some merit, but you've got a long way to go with this one. Calcification (of gall stones) isn't an overnight process, last time I checked.
> Some simple facts are this, if the liver puts out up to 1 liter of
> bile in a day and if your liver was all stuffed up with stones,
> then you would have some serious major health problems
Like, say, massive allergies?
> and your liver would not last long with a backup like that.
You grossly underestimate the body's capacity to heal itself or to work around difficulties. How long does it take a smoker to destroy his lungs?
> You would most likely get acute symptoms in several days to weeks
> if your bile flow was blocked much at all. Case in point, a
> friend’s baby just had biliary artresis (where there is no flow of
> bile from the liver) and this baby was in ICU in just a few
> weeks. Her liver was green/black from bile backup and she was
> very sick.
No doubt. But the difference is the inability to release bile at all versus the difficulty associated with gradually reduced flow.
> One of the photos on this site shows a GREEN liver section with
> green stones lying in some ducts. This photo is of a severely
> diseased liver (so much so it turned green with bile pigments).
> These stones formed because the liver was not functioning properly
> and with a lack of bile acids, these stones showed up the in the
> diseased organ which is normal in this case.
The only green-looking organ I've seen here is a gall bladder with stones inside, with a lot of greenish, creamy bile still shown. Could you direct me to this one?
> People claim to have passed very large stones that were several
> inches. This is a physical impossibility.
Confucius say, man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man who is doing it.
> The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch them like that, you
> ARE going to feel a lot of pain. Just like an acute attack if one
> gets stuck in the gull opening. The ducts will stretch, but not
> that big.
Oh, really? You're making an assumption here, without ONE IOTA of evidence to back up your claim.
> If you are getting stones this large, they are created in the
> small intestine. How? Simple. The large dump of bile that is
> lacking in bile acids will precipitate large gobs of cholesterol
> in the intestine just like in the liver. The mixing itself of the
> bile with the contents of the stomach will dilute the bile acids
> and cause this to happen. It is impossible to pass a very large
> stone through those ducts! It’s like trying to jamb a basketball
> through your garden hose.
More like, I would think, a baby's head through a vaginal opening. Or, for a real treat, (IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH, DO NOT GO HERE!), you could go take a look at http://www.goatse.cx/ and see how wide a man's anus can be stretched apart.
> You would have severe pain just like in acute gull attacks.
Well, you would, unless there were some way to relax and stretch those tissues beforehand.
You then go on for a few minutes to give a lot of unsubstantiated opinion on various topics. That's all I have to say about them, so I've cut them from here.
> Now lets consider this, I believe that God created man and he has
> the blueprint of our bodies. He made the system to work a certain
> way and it does its job perfectly well in the average person. If
> the liver were to be blocked even to 50% flow, you would know it,
> as you would become ill really fast.
And now, for the piece de resistance, you presume to know God's will. You're batting 1000 today! Not only that, but you also assume that you would know that 50% blockage would some how "be known". How do you know this?
Then again, how much degeneration is necessary in the relevant motor control cells before a patient with amyotropic lateral sclerosis (i.e. Lou Gherig's disease) notices? It's more than 50%!
Then again, how much buildup do we need to have in our colon -- i.e. how much loss of function -- do we have to have before we "notice"?
Then again, if you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will jump out, but if you put him in cold water and slowly heat it up, he will cook before he realizes he should jump out...
See? You're acting as if this loss is instantaneous. If it were instantaneous, someone might notice. Instead it occurs gradually, and often times people don't even realize they're having issues until they stop having them.
> That is why stone blockage in the common duct requires immediate
> surgery. Because the blockage backs up the bile in the liver and
> the person becomes very sick in only a few days to weeks.
And those of us who have had stones in our ducts and managed to pass them without surgery are thrilled -- nay, elated -- to know your opinion.
You then go on to pontificate even further on your now clearly expert opinion, having done so much thinking on the topic, explaining how it just "can't be that way".
Again, thanks for your keen insights.
=-John-=
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- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flu... Mark
22 y
3,880
This is a reply to # 65,537John,
>
>Did you test them yourself? Send them to a lab? If you're going to play the part of Sam >Scientist, don't concede this point without physical proof. No self-respecting scientist >would concede this point without a lab test.
I’m sorry John, but every theory has parts that are not supported by ANY scientific data or study. So, if I so chose to call it my “theory” I will do it.
John, did you test your stones? Are they made of cholesterol? What makes you think I did not have my stones tested? Calm down please, I’m after broad concepts here. I did not write a book on this and try to post it here. (yet, ha ha!)
> > When the flush is performed, one consumes Epsom Salt to dilate the
> > bile ducts. I have not verified any validity to this other than
> > magnesium has a relaxing effect on smooth muscle tissue, which
> > means it would relax the gull and duct muscles. This is accepted
> > as fact of this mineral on muscle tissue.
>
> OK. You're conceding this point... it is kinda hard to see this occur without some sort of intestinal camera. On the other hand, I can actually feel... weird... things... going... on... down there after I drink the Epsom Salts .
>
John, I’m sorry, I could not afford the camera and scope. Do you believe from experience and reading other’s opinion that the Epsom Salt does this very thing? You do or you would not use it, as I will assume you have. So why are you attacking my approach on things that we agree on? Lighten up a little. I must have struck a cord with you for some reason.
> > You then drink a massive dose of olive oil (fat) and lemon or
> > grapefruit juice. I still do not know what effect the
> > lemon/grapefruit has in this flush. The olive oil however, once
> > in the stomach, turns on a massive release of the hormone that
> > makes the gull and bile ducts contract. You get a MAJOR spasm
> > from these organs from a massive dose of the hormone. This spasm
> > can be felt in some people during the flush. I believe that this
> > is not a good idea as the gull and common ducts will contract like
> > they never have before, possibly causing some damage to some
> > tissues. Getting a huge dose of any hormone will cause a severe
> > reaction in the body that can be negative. The contractions spill
> > out a large volume of bile into the small intestine to meet the
> > fat and help you digest it.
>
>You believe that this is not a good idea. How nice to know. You mention that you feel pain afterwards... yet neither I nor my wife does.
>
>Have you ever watched an infant's head crown during birth? Personally, I think it's a >pretty serious design flaw in the human body, but, hey, at least the body *can* stretch >that much.
Sir, this is a simple piece of common sense. Your body releases hormones based on a stimulus. If you release a large amount of hormone, it will have a larger impact on its target. If you believe that you gut was meant to take even a half a cup of fat in one huge dose you truly mistaken. Eat a whole cup of Sugar and see what it does to you. It’s simple John, hormones are released in proportion to what stimulates them and this impacts the target to a similar degree. (in this case the GULL! Oh my, sorry John I could not help myself and misspelled it again!)
>
> Also, I have to argue with your use of the word "huge". You're suggesting that we're dumping, oh, I dunno, liters of some hormone or something. The dose ain't all that huge.
>
“Huge” means anything greater than the normal average does with a normal meal that one may eat. John, its really simple, eating a cup of fat in one gulp is not good. It would take you several really fatty meals to get that kind of response in the digestive system. Not to mention the mixture of all the other food makes it impossible for you to get any kind of hormone release that you get from gulping a huge dose of fat at one time like in the flush. The system was not meant to work that way John. Lets not loose tract of common sense. I can drink 12 beers on a good night (or bad). If I took the pure alcohol for those 12 beers and gulped it at one time it would probably kill me (that would be the same as me drinking over 7 shots of grain alcohol at one time).
> > After doing the flush myself, my bowel movements had oil in them.
> > This was obviously un-digested olive oil that made the entire trip
> > through my gut. My first bowel movement produced only a few
> > stones. They were the green ones about the size of a pea and they
> > floated on the surface. My second produced many stones, 50 or
> > more about the same size.
>
> Obviously. Again, if you're going to be scientific about it, have the stuff tested. The guys at the lab got over being grossed out about feces years ago.
>
Well if I fast for a day or more, and then eat a load of oil and then eat nothing for some time after that, what do you think is going to pass out your ass? Would you think maybe oil perhaps? Do this test, scoop some out and feel it and smell it. That is all the testing I needed, its olive oil. My nose is my “scientific equipment”. Try it, its fun!
> > How the stones are formed:
>
> > When there is a lack of bile acids in bile, the cholesterol in the
> > bile is no longer able to stay in a liquid state and it
> > precipitates out into “gobs” of cholesterol. I believe that
> > during the flush there is a significant loss of bile acids from
> > the system. Remember, this is a recycling type of system from the
> > ileum to the liver. If during the flush you do not re-absorb the
> > bile acids through the intestinal wall, and you end up with a
> > liver that produces new bile that is lacking sufficient bile acids
> > to keep the cholesterol in the liver in its liquid state.
> > Therefore, the cholesterol “gobs” form in the bile ducts in the
> > liver and in the gull bladder. I believe that the bile acids are
> > not re-absorbed by the ileum because the undigested oil coats the
> > lining of the intestines preventing them from being re-absorbed
> > properly in the system. Olive oil coats things very nicely and
> > will coat the lining of the intestines making it impossible to
> > absorb anything or much of anything in the gut. Thus you pass the
> > bile acids beyond the ileum without re-absorption and this creates
> > a deficiency of bile acids in this system, which depends on re-
> > circulation [to] work properly.
>
> This is an interesting hypothesis, but consider that in your scenario, the bile salts are >needed *later on* to make new bile, and the gobbing to which you refer would be >occurring in an already-purged liver (and an already flushed gall bladder), which no >l>onger needs to push out more bile, since it already did so (remember, hours and hours >pass before anyone eats anything else after the oil has been consumed). If the bile salts >go unabsorbed, that's fine, but that merely means that the cholesterol gobs are now >sitting in the liver, blocking up the works. The gobs you hypothesize aren't in the >intestine to be forming stones. In fact, in this scenario, it is likely that the liver would >be creating "bile" lacking both cholesterol (which is now gumming up the works since it >can't go back into solution with the now very watery "bile") and the bile salts.
>
John, this system is a constant flowing system. It may slow a bit but never stops. The liver needs the bile acids to keep the cholesterol in a liquid state. If they are lacking in the liver you will get coagulation of cholesterol. Its not a “stop and go” system as you suggest above. It constantly flows and it takes time to replace the lost bile acids. And during this time the stones form when the bile acids are low and then stops when the system has equalized again. The liver is constantly producing and releasing the bile.
> > The stones form overnight primarily in the liver and the ducts
> > growing in size as the move along. They then dump into the
> > intestine, as your liver naturally wants to get rid of them. They
> > then show up 1-2 days later in your loose stools. It takes the
> > system at least that long to build up enough bile acids again to
> > keep the cholesterol in a liquid state which keeps the “gobs” of
> > cholesterol from forming.
>
> Again, your timing is way off here. First, my stones come out the following day, often >before I've managed to eat anything else which would cause the "un-re-salted bile" or >"cholesterol gobs" from being pushed out of the liver, let alone out of the liver and >through the entire intestinal tract.
>
John, my timing is not way off. You will see I said 1 to 2 days. This is a good indication as this it how long it takes to pass the stones. Let me restate the time frame so there is no confusion. Several hours (6 to 8) to 2 days. Sorry for not being more detailed.
Let me clarify.
10 PM: fat is eaten. Bile is discharged and mixes with oil and juice within an hour (which is being very generous here since it is a liquid and needs very little digestion and passes out of the stomach quickly, probably within 20 minutes)
With little in the digestive tract, the mixture flows through the intestines and will do it rather quickly.
1 AM: the oil has probably made it a good way through the system and has coated the intestine to a degree. So within 3 hours the bile system is now lacking bile acids that did not get re-absorbed.
The blood that circulates from the ileum to the liver goes there really fast, so you can assume that by 1 am that there is now a lack of bile acids in the liver and that the gobs are starting to form.
2 AM: The stones are forming and are passing through the ducts making their way to the GULL and the common ducts.
3 AM: The stones are passed into the intestine and are making their way to daylight (the toilet).
6 AM: Some stones are probably have made their way into the colon. Remember all this time, there is still a lack of bile acids because of the oil film which by now is probably starting to decline and some re-absorption is taking place. So stone formation in the liver by this time is already declining. The blood carrying the bile acids (or really lack there of) has been through the liver many times by now.
8 AM: You first bowel movement shows some stones. You may get lots or a few. It depends on how things went in the guts.
10 AM till 24 hours later: The system has cleared and bile acids are now being reabsorbed well and the body has most likely attempted to replace them naturally. You will get the last of the stones passing out during this time. Everybody is different. There is not one person that will follow this exact schedule. This is merely to demonstrate how it can happen and how I believe it happened for me.
If you question my timing, for me, after a fast I can eat nothing but Watermelon and pass it on an empty gut within 2-3 hours. So if you question my timing on the stones traveling through and empty gut, this is my scientific proof. The Watermelon seeds and some pulp sure looked like they were from the Watermelon I ate. I did not taste it or try to plant the seeds to see if a watermelon would grow from them however. So, now that I think of it maybe my scientific study lacks factual data and I cannot conclude that it was truly the seed and pulp from the watermelon. It must have been something else that I did NOT eat. Rats, I though I had something going with that study! Sorry, just trying to add a little humor.
> > So, the flush gets out real cholesterol stones, mostly stones that
> > the flush itself has created due to a lack of bile acids in the
> > system. This is why people constantly get out stones when doing
> > the flush, because they are making them in the process. One post
> > on this board was that someone has counted over 31,000 stones in
> > 15 or so flushes. That is because they make them in the liver
> > every time they do the flush. I’ll bet that folks that flush a
> > lot lower their cholesterol due to elimination and not a lot of re-absorption.
>
> I'm sorry, but even older texts describe the process of forming gall stones as requiring a long time. If you can show an instance of a genuine gall stone being formed in the space of a day, then your claim might have some merit, but you've got a long way to go with this one. Calcification (of gall stones) isn't an overnight process, last time I checked.
>
How can you accept the information of the “older texts” you mention as did they give you scientific proof and scope the liver and ducts to get and absolute, concrete time frame on how long it takes a stone to form? You deny my opinion and knowledge of this topic yet you blindly accept their opinion without any merit or data to support it? John, I could say something nasty about you right now, but instead I’ll resort to “you need to put your foot in your mouth and practice what you preach.”
If you re-read my post, I explain that calcified stones TAKE A LONG TIME TO FORM. It is not beyond reason to think that the little soft stones could be made in several hours? You can produce semi-solid mucous balls in you throat and sinuses in several hours. I believe that your liver is totally capable of producing these soft stones. I think it is very possible.
> > Some simple facts are this, if the liver puts out up to 1 liter of
> > bile in a day and if your liver was all stuffed up with stones,
> > then you would have some serious major health problems
>
> Like, say, massive allergies?
>
> > and your liver would not last long with a backup like that.
>
> You grossly underestimate the body's capacity to heal itself or to work around difficulties. How long does it take a smoker to destroy his lungs?
>
John, I am fully aware that your body can compensate very well to things. If you get a duct obstruction that is well inside the liver, that portion of the liver will not function well but the remainder will take on the duty of cleaning the blood etc. But, if you get a major or total blockage in the common bile duct, you will get very sick in a short period of time. No ifs, ands, or butts (ha ha, get it). Call you local liver/biliary doctor and inquire for yourself.
Again “foot in mouth” applies to your comments here. I mentioned that God designed this system so that it will function very, very well and overcome adversity as you mention. But, you then deny the ability of the liver to function normally on its own without intervention from you and your flushes? You contradict yourself here. Can it over come adversity or not? Can it clear its self normally or not? Does it really require your help? I believe that in some cases that it may because if the organ is diseased or extremely abused it will not function as intended. But it is my opinion that these cases are not that common and that the liver will not ”filled” with stones in a majority of individuals. People with extreme allergies may have blockages in certain portions of the liver and I mentioned that in my last post. It is possible. But I don’t believe the flush will loosen those blockages. The herbs may be capable of breaking them down if they are stuck in a duct.
If you block the flow of bile from the liver, you are going to have more than allergies. A partial blockage could give allergy symptoms and flushing could help, I never denied this. I just don’t think these stones back all the way up into the liver like that.
Have some people doing the flushes actually had worst symptoms? I believe I have read several posts here that they have. This may be because you end up forming more stones behind one that may be stuck due to the bile acid drop in the newly produced bile.
> > You would most likely get acute symptoms in several days to weeks
> > if your bile flow was blocked much at all. Case in point, a
> > friend’s baby just had biliary artresis (where there is no flow of
> > bile from the liver) and this baby was in ICU in just a few
> > weeks. Her liver was green/black from bile backup and she was
> > very sick.
>
> No doubt. But the difference is the inability to release bile at all versus the difficulty associated with gradually reduced flow.
>
> > One of the photos on this site shows a GREEN liver section with
> > green stones lying in some ducts. This photo is of a severely
> > diseased liver (so much so it turned green with bile pigments).
> > These stones formed because the liver was not functioning properly
> > and with a lack of bile acids, these stones showed up the in the
> > diseased organ which is normal in this case.
>
> The only green-looking organ I've seen here is a gall bladder with stones inside, with a lot of greenish, creamy bile still shown. Could you direct me to this one?
>
Yes, I will direct you to it. It’s on the first Liver Flush page. Just scroll down and you will see it. This raises a question. How many “healthy” non-diseased livers have you seen loaded with stones? Surely the medical community (which I’m not to found of) would establish this in its dissecting of 100’s of “healthy” livers for students and research in the past. How come they never report or document that they found loads of stones plugging up what they though were healthy livers? How come many diseased livers that are dissected almost regularly do not show hundreds of stones in all the ducts? As these diseased livers would most likely have more stones in them than a normal healthy liver, right? It just does not add up.
> > People claim to have passed very large stones that were several
> > inches. This is a physical impossibility.
>
> Confucius say, man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man who is doing it.
>
> > The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch them like that, you
> > ARE going to feel a lot of pain. Just like an acute attack if one
> > gets stuck in the gull opening. The ducts will stretch, but not
> > that big.
>
> Oh, really? You're making an assumption here, without ONE IOTA of evidence to back up your claim.
>
John its all in design. The birth canal was DESIGNED to stretch like that so your analogy is a poor one. I don’t think God for-saw “golf balls” coming down the pike. And if he did, he would have compensated by leaving out all the nerve cells! Ouch! Stone that cause great pain in passing through the common duct and gull are the size of a marble. They cause great pain. Some people use flushes that do not use EPSOM salt, the supposed duct dilator. They claim to pass very large stones with no pain. This is nuts, just ask someone that has had an acute GULL / common duct blockage. I’ll bank my IOTA on the pain that people suffer from with acute attacks.
> > If you are getting stones this large, they are created in the
> > small intestine. How? Simple. The large dump of bile that is
> > lacking in bile acids will precipitate large gobs of cholesterol
> > in the intestine just like in the liver. The mixing itself of the
> > bile with the contents of the stomach will dilute the bile acids
> > and cause this to happen. It is impossible to pass a very large
> > stone through those ducts! It’s like trying to jamb a basketball
> > through your garden hose.
>
> More like, I would think, a baby's head through a vaginal opening. Or, for a real treat, (IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH, DO NOT GO HERE!), you could go take a look at http://www.goatse.cx/ and see how wide a man's anus can be stretched apart.
>
> > You would have severe pain just like in acute gull attacks.
>
> Well, you would, unless there were some way to relax and stretch those tissues beforehand.
>
> You then go on for a few minutes to give a lot of unsubstantiated opinion on various topics. That's all I have to say about them, so I've cut them from here.
>
> > Now lets consider this, I believe that God created man and he has
> > the blueprint of our bodies. He made the system to work a certain
> > way and it does its job perfectly well in the average person. If
> > the liver were to be blocked even to 50% flow, you would know it,
> > as you would become ill really fast.
>
> And now, for the piece de resistance, you presume to know God's will. You're batting 1000 today! Not only that, but you also assume that you would know that 50% blockage would some how "be known". How do you know this?
>
John, you are batting without a bat. I mentioned nothing about knowing God’s will but merely gave him the glory for make a masterpiece, the human body and all its systems. The % I used is merely an estimate. If you are not satisfied with this estimate, you can help me provide proof. I’ll shove a wedge in your common bile duct so that you only pass 50% of your bile and then we will wait to see how long it take for you to get sick. Then we can share this scientific data with everyone. You up for that?
> Then again, how much degeneration is necessary in the relevant motor control cells before a patient with amyotropic lateral sclerosis (i.e. Lou Gherig's disease) notices? It's more than 50%!
>
> Then again, how much buildup do we need to have in our colon -- i.e. how much loss of function -- do we have to have before we "notice"?
>
> Then again, if you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will jump out, but if you put him in cold water and slowly heat it up, he will cook before he realizes he should jump out...
>
> See? You're acting as if this loss is instantaneous. If it were instantaneous, someone might notice. Instead it occurs gradually, and often times people don't even realize they're having issues until they stop having them.
Yes severe symptoms take a while to show up. But, you must realize that most people have been conditioned by themselves and doctors to ignore or suppress the bodies warning signs. Again you disgrace the wonder of our bodies that God has given us. People go years with minor pain and just ignore it. I do it myself. If you LISTEN to your body and not just take a drug to cover up the symptoms, you will hear its warnings. They are called symptoms. People go tired and with little energy for YEARS, then when they suddenly get diagnosed with a disease they say they never saw it coming. What a crock. The lack of energy for 30 years was a symptom. They just ignore it like most of us do. Listen to your body and it will tell you it has problems.
> > That is why stone blockage in the common duct requires immediate
> > surgery. Because the blockage backs up the bile in the liver and
> > the person becomes very sick in only a few days to weeks.
>
> And those of us who have had stones in our ducts and managed to pass them without surgery are thrilled -- nay, elated -- to know your opinion.
>
> You then go on to pontificate even further on your now clearly expert opinion, having done so much thinking on the topic, explaining how it just "can't be that way".
John, thanks again for all the insults. It is nice to know the real you. It seems that you have a problem with considering others opinions that differ from your own. I’m not interested in quibbling with you about how you believe my opinions are so far gone. I can back them with references on chemistry, pictures, and literature that I have read that enable me to form my opinions. I did not pull them out of thin air. My intention is pass information to others and learn more about this issue.
For all those who are interested I will create a reference sheet and e-mail to you at your request.
Thanks,
Mark D P
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flush…. Webmaster
22 y
3,559
MoreThis is a reply to # 65,542
I have made small changes in 2 previous posts ...
I didn't want to remove it entirely ... but I may remove them entirely ... I just didn't have time to read it all ... it is long ...
Please ... watch your language, and if you continue this thread ... try to keep discussion on higher level ...
Posting extremely foul or abusive language aimed at a
fellow list member is forbidden!!!!!! This includes verbal harassment !!!!!
If you disagree with someone ... it happens often ... avoid direct verbal attack!...
People may have different opinions and that is something we just have to learn to live with ...
Remember that the rest of the people reading messages do not need to be subjected to bickering!
Ida
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- No offense intended, Webmaster, but.... John Cullison
22 y
3,563
This is a reply to # 65,543>
> I have made small changes in 2 previous posts ...
> I didn't want to remove it entirely ... but I may remove them entirely ... I just didn't have time to read it all ... it is long ...
>
> Please ... watch your language, and if you continue this thread ... try to keep discussion on higher level ...
>
> Posting extremely foul or abusive language aimed at a
> fellow list member is forbidden!!!!!! This includes verbal harassment !!!!!
>
>
> If you disagree with someone ... it happens often ... avoid direct verbal attack!...
>
> People may have different opinions and that is something we just have to learn to live with ...
>
> Remember that the rest of the people reading messages do not need to be subjected to bickering!
No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to read these posts.
I will not, however, allow this "friendly fellow" to come in here and play "expert" when all the while he's trying to frighten people. He thinks he's clever. He's not. He presumes to know God's will. He doesn't. He acts as if his "common sense" is better than ours. It isn't. He tries to make a case for why a Liver Flush is dangerous, and why it doesn't work.
If he had come here and stated that "it didn't work for him", I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. I would immediately question his technique -- it's not all that complicated, and it's highly unlikely that he's genetically predisposed not to flush his gall bladder after consuming half a cup of oil after a day of not eating fats, but, hey, he could be some sort of mutant.
But instead, he attempted to be all scientific about it, as if he could think his way through it to prove that it doesn't work. And, to make himself look extra specially impartial, he even claims to have done two flushes himself. For the sake of argument (or, rather, not argument), maybe he has.
He's just looking out for the safety of others, after all.
Bovine feces.
=-John-=
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Jasmine
22 y
3,440
This is a reply to # 65,547Hi Guys
Maybe it's time to put away your tape measures as this dick-measuring contest only serves to confuse (and sometimes amuse) those looking for unbiased advice.
For what it's worth though, I would like to make a point to Mark which is: - Don' t assume that because people post messages about their pain (I was one on them) that the pain experienced after flushing is necessarily more severe that the pain experienced before.
I wrote several messages about the high level of pain I was experiencing post flush, but neglected to mention that prior to the flushes the pain from frequent attacks (not to mention the vomiting) was so great that I would have gladly paid someone to hit me hard over the head!! Since flushing, I have had some bad pains, but nothing of that magnitude and no more vomiting.
My pain is now down to the occasional grumble and I have not had to take the considerable risks associated with the surgery that had been lined up for me.
Please stick to personal experience (clearly marked out as such) and substantiated fact, as wild hypothesis can be alarming for many especially those new to the site and already distressed by their condition.
Mark, please try to keep within the spirit of the forum and John, don't rise to it (and thanks for your help on my previous posts).
Jasmine
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- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Mark
22 y
3,621
This is a reply to # 65,553Jasmine and John,
I think you both need to read my other post here, not on this discussion with john, but the posts to others who I attempt to help with the flush.
If you re-read my post you will see that I support the flush and I say several times that it can be a good thing in you have stone problems or pain or are subjected to the oppinion of allopaths to get surgery. Have you both just missed the sections of my post that state this?
Jasimine as for my oppinion not holding any water, since now you have joined the likes of John in an attempt to tell me that my oppinion is not worth scratch, I will put together my references and send them to you. You (and everyone else) can then read for themselves about the chemistry, and clear physical properties of this system and why I believe its impossible to pass high quantities of stones unless your little liver factory is making them. Its a simple physical impossibility and I will re-iterate it and do all the math just so you and John can read and test it for yourselves.
Also, you and John are so insistant that my oppinions have no merit, yet I have not seen one tid bit of PROOF from you or John that these flushes do what you believe they do. You have not even offered to provide references as I have many times in my posts.
So, to say this as nicely as possible, put up your own HARD, CONCRETE PROOF AND SCINETIFIC DATA that these flushes do as you say they do, or shut up. (I'm saying this with a pleaseant disposition). John, where is it? Where is your PROOF? If you take Dr. Clarks litature as PROOF, well my friend you need to realize that here whole book is based on the same type of thing that you accuse me of here. I like some of here ideas and procedures, but she has little proof herself on many of her concepts. I want your references to data and studies that all the stones you get from these flushes are from stones that are just "sitting around" in the liver and gull blader and that they are not readily made in the liver and/or intestine during the flush. You have some big GULL stones for accusing me of posting a bunch mis-information when you have not supported your position with one ounce of PROOF of your own. Your something special.
Now to all of you that may think my intentions are "scare" tactics and that my oppinions are a bunch of mis-information let me re-iterate my position.
If you read my other post you will find that I believe that these flushes can help people rid themselves of stones and that I have myself supported and offered advice to people on this list with flushing.
On the other hand, I don't think its such a great idea to spike the digestive tract with a quanity of fat that you could not nearly duplicate with eating large quanities of even the fattiest foods on the face of the earth, this is common sense (but John does not think so). Pure fat vs some food that is composed of protien, carbs etc will never make your body respond in this manner, EVER. So if you get pain after doing a flush, it is possible that your little GULL could not take that hit of fat and it has contracted so hard that it now goes into spasms or its possible that you have strained some connective tissue to say the least(a blood vessle rupture perhaps? There are many possibilities here).
Its also not a great idea to pass a pot load of undigested fat through the digestive system. Its is supposed to be digested, not run through there like an oil slick. If fat were ment to just run thorugh there, you would have not produce liapase, stomach acid, and bile to try to digest it. This is pretty easy to understand.
I'm not trying to scare anyone. Its a simple case of you must be aware that doing this flush in not a natural process and the system was not meant to take that much fat in one gulp. So if you get intestional problems after a flush its most likely because the intestine did not take well to the undigested oil. I'm just trying to make people aware of this. I have read several post lately where people now have pain, and I am trying to help them understand why and I'm met with resistance from you. You are circumventing my attempt to help people on this list!
For those of you who have acute attacks and it is either do the flush or get surergy, by all mean try the flush! I have said this many times! Please re-read my posts!
Since provoked now by more than one reader here I WILL now back my entire oppinion with detailed information and post it here. You can then read it and decide for yourself if I am on to something or if I'm floating around in fairy land.
Acute attacks or severe allergies or the sergury? I'll say it again as I have in all my posts, TRY THE FLUSH, it may help! But also be responsible and learn that the flushes may give you symptoms that you once never had and why! I'm tyring to educate and help people here!
Thanks,
Mark
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Jasmine
22 y
3,413
MoreThis is a reply to # 65,560Mark
Nowhere in my post did I say your opinion was not worth anything. My post was simply to try to get you to calm down a little and lighten up and to mention my own experiences on one particular subject.
I can see now that I wasted my time.
Attack me if you want. I can take it! But PLEASE, a little humour and humility goes a long way in a tough world.
Walk in the sunshine.
Jasmine.- Bravo Mark... Barry
22 y
3,724
This is a reply to # 65,566Advertisement
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Dear Mark,
I agree with your 'theory' totally. I think the main thing that is being missunderstood here is the 'stone'. Know your stone is the answer. You have said exactly what I have been thinking. I have done 8 cleanses and eliminated over 2,000 bile-cholesterol globs or balls of bile. Are they stones? Call them what you will. I also had a remaining 1 cm hard cholesterol gallstone that would not exit with the flush methods. Two types of stones? I think yes. I call one the 'real' gallstone and the other the bile-ball stone.
Flush stone;
This is the soft, squishy balls or globs of bile-cholesterol that people are calling gallstones. I used to think so too. I now believe these hundreds and thousands of balls (stones) are created by the aide of the flush method. It explains why people have flushed 133 times over 4 1/2 yrs and is wondering why they haven't reached the bottom of the barrel yet and also more importantly why they still have colic gb pain. The soft balls are not considered to be 'stones' by my definition any more.
Don't attack me. I'm not calling them oil. Oil helps to exit them but they are made of 95% cholesterol and bile. So, the question is not weither they are oil or stones. The question is are they Gallstones or bile balls? Definition is the key here.
Gallstone;
These are the hard cholesterol, cholesterol shelled, calcium, pigment stones that sit in the gallbladder and is the cause of most colic attacks. Sludge and grain in the ducts can cause attacks as well. These are hareder to flush if they are big. Mine for instance was 1.1cm trying to pass through the 2mm cystic duct. Hundreds of soft bile balls produced by my flushes would pass but the hard gallstone would not. This is what led me to study deeper into your already discovered 'theory'.
So, know your stone. Know what it is that is in the gb. Know how to eliminate it. Examine and study all options and methods. The key is to understand what the flushing will and does do.
I believe you are right on the mark even if some people in here are missunderstanding your terminolgy or intentions to explain the knowledge you have reached on this process. I understand exactly what you are saying because of my own personal experience, study of testimonies, study of websites, etc. I wanted to know why the pain was still there and why the stone would not exit while hundreds of soft balls would.
Anyway, without going further into my own theory now I just want to say thank you for explaining the differences in the 'stone'.
Be healthy, happy, and pain free.
Barry.
- Thank you Mark and one Question.. Jennie
22 y
3,675
This is a reply to # 65,604Hi Mark,
Thank you for your post. Many points in your post made sense to me. I have one question. Some people pass black globs. I heard the black bile is older and has been sitting for a longer time in the system then the green globs? Would it be possible that those ones are the baddies that are hampering liver function for a longer time and that the green ones are formed while doing the cleanse? What is your opinion on this?
I am grateful for your post as the so many thousands of stones people have passed in dozens of flushes did not make sense to me. Now I feel it is okay to do one or 2 flushes to give the liver a nice oil massage which I think does have its value but no need to make a regular routine of flushing every 2 weeks. It seems not neccesary, especially not when one sticks to a light healthy Diet with lots of delicious fruits and veggies and lovely olive oil and lemon as dressing.
Thanks again!
Jen
- Thank you Mark and one Question.. Jennie
22 y
3,675
- Bravo Mark... Barry
22 y
3,724
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... John Cullison
22 y
3,513
This is a reply to # 65,560Advertisement
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The whole point of my post, Mark, was that personal experience is the basic research unit of alternative health. Not "thinking about it". That's what the MD's do -- they "think" that these stones couldn't possibly be gall stones, so they toss the stones in the garbage and decide it isn't important to even bother testing. Too much thought, not enough looking!
This has nothing to do with your opinion having merit or not. (I even posted that your hypothesis might actually have some merit, in terms of oil having something to do with these stones -- particularly the small ones.) It has everything to do with "terror" being used to frighten people away or scare them, which is how your post came off to me. Wait a couple months and re-read your post, Mark. It's "physically impossible", you say, for a stone to pass through the biliary duct, and yet I've passed them both painfully and not.
There probably is a physical limit to the size of a stone that could pass. I suspect it's a lot larger than you believe, and I gave analogous data to support my belief. I have not taken a caliper to my biliary tubing, nor have I stuffed wedges up said tubing, to attempt to determine the precise size of an object I can pass through it.
We aren't here trying to find scientific proof. We're here trying to find health. We're here trying to find out if this stuff works or not -- to be responsible for ourselves and our health.
We aren't the ones representing that this stuff is scientifically valid or anything else. We're reading what others who have travelled this journey have had to say about it, and we're walking the path ourselves, sharing our experiences along the way for others. We don't discount anecdotal evidence, because that's the medium we use. We're telling people what we know, what we've seen, etc.
Science, on the other hand, holds this method up for ridicule, and, because it isn't the "scientific method", it derides us for it. Now, there are perfectly good reasons for using the scientific method. Do not try to twist my meaning here. There are even means of using the scientific method in alternative medicine -- there is nothing that explicitly forbids it. Because we use the whole plant instead of the "active component", however, Science has issues with most alternative medicine. In any case, that isn't what we are here. I'm fresh out of people I know with cancer to run tests on.
I AM MY REFERENCE. We here who post here are our own references. Get it?
I am not trying to educate anyone here. I am chronicling my path along this journey, with the hope that it might benefit someone to know what I've seen, what I've been through, how I've gotten through this difficulty called "gall stones".
Above all else, I seek to encourage others who are on the cusp of responsibility for themselves and their own health to take that step and assume that responsibility.
If there are dangers, then you are right to note them. No argument there. But, again, your post came off as nothing but a terror tactic, with a lot of unsubstantiated (i.e. personal experience) claims. You claim to have done two flushes. We have folks here who have done dozens. They still live to tell the tale. Their insides haven't been irrevocably destroyed by consuming a half a cup or a cup of oil. Their biliary tubing hasn't been ripped from their insides.
For the record, I do not believe that a diet which consists of cups of oil each and every day is a good idea. Not one bit. On the other hand, I do not believe that half a cup of oil is "harmful". Belief aside, the only personal evidence I have is that I'm still here, I didn't die, my insides still seem in tact, and, other than a brief bit of burning sensation around my anal opening (due to very watery stool, or something in it), I found no irritation at all. Oh, yeah, and my wife seems rather healthy in spite of three flushes so far, too. Let's make my wife my guinea pig. Muahahahaha...
Now, if I have somehow misread you (in the interests of honesty, allow me to say that I don't believe I have), perhaps the attack of one "Dr. Sharat something-or-other" helped to set me off. Two separate "attacks" in one week seemed a little... conveniently coincidental.
The whole point of this web site is, I believe (feel free to correct me, Reader), to support each other in this quest for personal responsibility for one's health. Your post did not look to be doing that at all, but merely an attempt to plant the seed of doubt in the minds of readers, using what looks like terror tactics, with some "scientific basis" to add an air of legitimacy; except that your "scientific basis" is a lot of thought about what happened or happens, and no actual (or very little) personal experience with the topic -- either one's own experience, or one's experience as applied to others (as in a scientific study).
This sounds a lot like how "modern" medicine treats alternative medicine. It sounds like the hubris that has chained humanity's knowledge of itself and its environment for countless centuries.
=-John-=
- And one other thing... John Cullison
22 y
3,691
This is a reply to # 65,662The whole point of my post, Mark, was that personal experience is the basic research unit of alternative health. Not "thinking about it". That's what the MD's do -- they "think" that these stones couldn't possibly be gall stones, so they toss the stones in the garbage and decide it isn't important to even bother testing. Too much thought, not enough looking!
This has nothing to do with your opinion having merit or not. (I even posted that your hypothesis might actually have some merit, in terms of oil having something to do with these stones -- particularly the small ones.) It has everything to do with "terror" being used to frighten people away or scare them, which is how your post came off to me. Wait a couple months and re-read your post, Mark. It's "physically impossible", you say, for a stone to pass through the biliary duct, and yet I've passed them both painfully and not.
There probably is a physical limit to the size of a stone that could pass. I suspect it's a lot larger than you believe, and I gave analogous data to support my belief. I have not taken a caliper to my biliary tubing, nor have I stuffed wedges up said tubing, to attempt to determine the precise size of an object I can pass through it.
We aren't here trying to find scientific proof. We're here trying to find health. We're here trying to find out if this stuff works or not -- to be responsible for ourselves and our health.
We aren't the ones representing that this stuff is scientifically valid or anything else. We're reading what others who have travelled this journey have had to say about it, and we're walking the path ourselves, sharing our experiences along the way for others. We don't discount anecdotal evidence, because that's the medium we use. We're telling people what we know, what we've seen, etc.
Science, on the other hand, holds this method up for ridicule, and, because it isn't the "scientific method", it derides us for it. Now, there are perfectly good reasons for using the scientific method. Do not try to twist my meaning here. There are even means of using the scientific method in alternative medicine -- there is nothing that explicitly forbids it. Because we use the whole plant instead of the "active component", however, Science has issues with most alternative medicine. In any case, that isn't what we are here. I'm fresh out of people I know with cancer to run tests on.
I AM MY REFERENCE. We here who post here are our own references. Get it?
I am not trying to educate anyone here. I am chronicling my path along this journey, with the hope that it might benefit someone to know what I've seen, what I've been through, how I've gotten through this difficulty called "gall stones".
Above all else, I seek to encourage others who are on the cusp of responsibility for themselves and their own health to take that step and assume that responsibility.
If there are dangers, then you are right to note them. No argument there. But, again, your post came off as nothing but a terror tactic, with a lot of unsubstantiated (i.e. personal experience) claims. You claim to have done two flushes. We have folks here who have done dozens. They still live to tell the tale. Their insides haven't been irrevocably destroyed by consuming a half a cup or a cup of oil. Their biliary tubing hasn't been ripped from their insides.
For the record, I do not believe that a diet which consists of cups of oil each and every day is a good idea. Not one bit. On the other hand, I do not believe that half a cup of oil is "harmful". Belief aside, the only personal evidence I have is that I'm still here, I didn't die, my insides still seem in tact, and, other than a brief bit of burning sensation around my anal opening (due to very watery stool, or something in it), I found no irritation at all. Oh, yeah, and my wife seems rather healthy in spite of three flushes so far, too. Let's make my wife my guinea pig. Muahahahaha...
Now, if I have somehow misread you (in the interests of honesty, allow me to say that I don't believe I have), perhaps the attack of one "Dr. Sharat something-or-other" helped to set me off. Two separate "attacks" in one week seemed a little... conveniently coincidental.
The whole point of this web site is, I believe (feel free to correct me, Reader), to support each other in this quest for personal responsibility for one's health. Your post did not look to be doing that at all, but merely an attempt to plant the seed of doubt in the minds of readers, using what looks like terror tactics, with some "scientific basis" to add an air of legitimacy; except that your "scientific basis" is a lot of thought about what happened or happens, and no actual (or very little) personal experience with the topic -- either one's own experience, or one's experience as applied to others (as in a scientific study).
This sounds a lot like how "modern" medicine treats alternative medicine. It sounds like the hubris that has chained humanity's knowledge of itself and its environment for countless centuries.
=-John-=
- And one other thing... John Cullison
22 y
3,691
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Jasmine
22 y
3,413
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Mark
22 y
3,621
- Re: No offense intended, Webmaster, ... Jasmine
22 y
3,440
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flush…. Mark
22 y
3,555
This is a reply to # 65,543Advertisement
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I'm sorry if this post is getting a little out of line, my intent is to share what I have learned and to learn more.
John, your judgement of me is way off target. Read my previous posts (all of them with titles of Mark and MP) and you will again see how wrong you are. I have attempted to help people here with flushing and I have offered support. It seems that when you read my posts you miss the parts where I mention how the flush could be helpful for people. My oppinions here are backed by my own reasearch and I will provide references here to anyone that wants them. Just ask and I'll get them for you.
Why you believe I know Gods will is still beyond me. There are some simple things you must fail to believe about God. He creates things that are perfect. Not that man cannot distroy them, but they are none the less perfect and could never be duplicated by man. I proclaim nothing as my own but give the glory to God and acknowledge Him. You obviously have not made the connection with Him or you would see Him work in your life like he does in mine. I understand things that I never did before and put together concepts like I could never have done before.
God helps those who help themselves, but God can't help you if you don't let Him into your life. Give it try and you will understand things that you never have before. The truth(His knowledge) will set you free.
Sorry John, I'm here to help and to offer my ideas and the things I have learned on this subject. I'm sorry that you fail to see that in my posts. I never once discredited the flush as a total waste of time as you propose I did. Go back and read them. I'm on your side John. It just seems you cannot handle others oppinions and knoweldge if it differs from your own. I'm sorry you get stone attacks, but it is because you have a bio-chemical imbalance. (yes John I'm knowledgable about other things too)
I appoligise for any inconveince to the message board. If anyone wants references and my credientials, please just ask.
Sincerely,
Mark- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flush…. John Cullison
22 y
3,494
This is a reply to # 65,551I beg to differ.
You have basically stated that those of us who have gall stones, seen them, identified them, claimed to have sent them to labs and had the result "gall stones" come back, are all some how confused and don't know what's going on.
Basically, you've come up with a neat method of thinking about how these alleged gall stones could be falsely generated by the process itself, and the hypothesis might even have some merit.
But that is a far cry from having enough evidence to make the sweeping generalizations that you made in your post.
Allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment, and that what appear to me as veiled scare tactics really are just your attempts to add value to this forum.
You formulated a hypothesis (or perhaps several) based on your observations. Step One, Check. Then you drew conclusions from your hypothesis(-es). Step Two, Flunk. You should have attempted to test your hypothesis, not draw conclusions from it.
This is basic science, Mark. It has nothing to do with God or common sense. It's a cycle of formulation of hypotheses and then testing the hypotheses to demonstrate or disprove them.
Look at what physicists do. While they have their theorists coming up with some of the strangest ideas ever, they convince Congress or some rich benefactor or some coalition of contries to build multi-billion dollar machines to test their ideas. And then, they test some more. And, sometimes, they have to toss their ideas out because the test shows some completely unexpected result. And that's the best time of all, because that's when they really progress.
You've gone nowhere near this. And there is nothing requiring you to do so. And you are welcome to your opinion, and how dangerous the process is. But I am equally welcome to mine, and just as welcome to express it.
To me, all you've done is come to a board which is intended for the support of individuals who seek to assume responsibility for themselves and their health, and covertly hijacked it to corrupt the intent of the owners. Ooooh, let's all be afraid of the stretching of the biliary duct, because it's impossible for it to open that widely.
Nice try, Mr. Touchy-Feely, but you don't fool me.
=-John-=
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flush…. John Cullison
22 y
3,494
- No offense intended, Webmaster, but.... John Cullison
22 y
3,563
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flu... John Cullison
22 y
3,509
This is a reply to # 65,542Advertisement
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Dear Mark,
You have come here and done a half-hearted attempt to "understand" what's going on, and then offered your well-researched theories as to what is going on, in an attempt to discredit this procedure. I've seen it before, and I'll likely see it again.
Consequently, I have little to no patience with you. If you're trying to understand something, then try studying it. Study means LOOK AT. It doesn't mean "think about". It doesn't mean come here and offer a veiled attack in the guise of feigning "interest in study".
That's complete BS, and your attempts to act all offended is just your way of trying to play it off. I know your type. Yes, you have one, and it's not my fault you play right into the stereotype. If you want to stop being thought of as a little weasel, then stop acting like one.
For the record: I have seen (i.e. looked at) Gallstones come out of my derriere after full fledged gall bladder attacks. I know what they look like, and how they feel. This was well before I knew anything about doing flushes.
I have since gotten the same kinds of stones (plus others whose origins I do not know, and which could very well be related to your "cholesterol gobs", except for the dark green, pea-like quality, which suggests concentrated bile, not mere cholesterol) from doing the liver/gall flush.
I don't have to believe anything about it. I know what my real gall stones look like. I know that there were other ones, too. The first "genuine" gall stones that I got came from my third flush. My first two did not produce (that I could tell...) any of these types of gall stones, but they did produce other things, particularly tan and green... things...
No, I didn't test them. I'm not trying to prove it or disprove it. I'm not trying to believe it or not believe it. I'm doing it and observing the results.
> John, I’m sorry, I could not afford the camera and scope. Do you
> believe from experience and reading other’s opinion that the Epsom
> salt does this very thing? You do or you would not use it, as I
> will assume you have. So why are you attacking my approach on
> things that we agree on? Lighten up a little. I must have struck
> a cord with you for some reason.
My assertion, from my personal experience, is that I passed gall stones similar in size (1 to 2 cm in diameter) without pain on my third flush which looked just like the gall stones (both in size and appearance) from my gall stone attacks last year.
I also passed some rather larger things which I could not call gall stones. When I broke one apart, it was quite hard on the outside, but I had no idea what the contents were on the inside. It looked like sand. For all I know, it was extremely well dried feces.
The Epsom Salts seem to have been the basis for it. I am not going to do a flush without the Epsom Salts , as I have no desire for an attack. Perhaps merely having sufficent bile stored is enough to lubricate the ducts enough to flush the stones out, and the Epsom Salts have little to do with it. I don't know.
> Sir, this is a simple piece of common sense.
It was once "common sense" that the world was flat. Then it was "common sense" that the Sun orbited Earth, and Earth was the center of the universe. And so on. Common sense? Please.
> Your body releases hormones based on a stimulus. If you release a
> large amount of hormone, it will have a larger impact on its
> target.
Granted. I have no argument with this.
> If you believe that you gut was meant to take even a half a cup of
> fat in one huge dose you truly mistaken.
Good to know that you still have that finger on God's pulse.
> Eat a whole cup of Sugar and see what it does to you.
Thanks, but I'll pass. Then again, show me where in nature you can find a cup of sugar. Meanwhile, I can get quite a large portion of fat from a number of animals.
> It’s simple John, hormones are released in proportion to what
> stimulates them and this impacts the target to a similar degree.
And your point was that you don't *believe* it's a good idea. And, given all the wonderful research you've done, you must truly know!
> “Huge” means anything greater than the normal average does with a
> normal meal that one may eat.
No, "huge", as taken from dictionary.com, means:
"Of exceedingly great size, extent, or quantity. See Synonyms at enormous."
You were trying to use hyperbole as a scare tactic, and now that I've called you on it, you're trying to play it off.
You have no idea how much is released. Nor do you know what the specification is for the device (i.e. the human gall bladder). And even if it isn't "good", no one professionally recommends doing it more often than once every two weeks, anyway.
You can do more muscular damage by beginning a weight training program.
> John, its really simple, eating a cup of fat in one gulp is not
> good.
Hmmm... but having your gall bladder removed is? Eating a couple of Bacon Ultimate Cheeseburgers from Jack In The Box is?
> It would take you several really fatty meals to get that kind of
> response in the digestive system.
Excuse me, but have you ever had a gall bladder attack?
> Not to mention the mixture of all the other food makes it
> impossible for you to get any kind of hormone release that you get
> from gulping a huge dose of fat at one time like in the flush.
Sir, if you find yourself dying from malaria, you might be interested in some quinine. You might not like the taste, and I highly advise eating it daily for the rest of your life, but if you've got malaria, it's not such a bad idea!
Likewise, if you've got some gall stones to remove, consuming 1/2 cup of olive oil once every two weeks on an empty stomach for a couple of months HARDLY seems like the threat you make it out to be.
> The system was not meant to work that way John.
Again, good to know that you have the human blueprint available for refernce.
> Lets not loose tract of common sense.
Practice what you preach. Then again, if what you preach really is "common sense", I'd rather be insane.
> I can drink 12 beers on a good night (or bad). If I took the pure
> alcohol for those 12 beers and gulped it at one time it would
> probably kill me (that would be the same as me drinking over 7
> shots of grain alcohol at one time).
And yet I've managed to drink 1/2 cup of olive oil straight, three times now, and I live to tell the tale. Your analogy is WAY off. You're comparing seven shots of grain alcohol to 1/2 cup of olive oil?
> Well if I fast for a day or more, and then eat a load of oil and
> then eat nothing for some time after that, what do you think is
> going to pass out your ass? Would you think maybe oil perhaps?
> Do this test, scoop some out and feel it and smell it. That is
> all the testing I needed, its olive oil. My nose is
> my “scientific equipment”. Try it, its fun!
Well, while I have to agree it's probably fun, wouldn't all that bile actually help to digest some of the olive oil? I mean, as long as we're talking common sense...
> John, this system is a constant flowing system. It may slow a bit
> but never stops. The liver needs the bile acids to keep the
> cholesterol in a liquid state. If they are lacking in the liver
> you will get coagulation of cholesterol. Its not a “stop and go”
> system as you suggest above. It constantly flows and it takes
> time to replace the lost bile acids. And during this time the
> stones form when the bile acids are low and then stops when the
> system has equalized again. The liver is constantly producing and
> releasing the bile.
The gall bladder is a stop and go system. To my knowledge, the liver is not, so on this point we agree. But then why, suddenly, have you seemingly "run out of bile salts" such that you have cholesterol just dropping out of solution?
How did your hypothetical liver suddenly run out of bile salts just because of a flush? It's always producing bile, right? The liver must have some reasonable way of fashioning or acquiring these bile salts on a regular basis, despite the constant concentration of bile going on in the gall bladder.
If I've just dumped every bit of gall releasing hormone (whatever it's called) into my system, and this influenced the liver, such that the liver just dumped a bunch of the bile it was holding at a faster than normal rate, then wouldn't the liver kinda have to work up to having enough "bile pressure" to get that flow going again?
So these hypotehtical cholesterol gobs... which are now in the liver... have less pressure pushing them out after this massive surge of bile flow from the hypothetical liver itself... suggesting that the cholesterol gobs would only further gum up the liver, thereby slowing down the release of bile further, until enough pressure was built up to push them out, or enough bile salts we re absorbed to dissolve the cholesterol gobs.
I mean, heck, "common sense" can lead us down any number of paths!
The fact is, you've done two flushes and a bunch of thinking to attempt to discredit the flush.
> John, my timing is not way off. You will see I said 1 to 2 days.
> This is a good indication as this it how long it takes to pass the
> stones. Let me restate the time frame so there is no confusion.
> Several hours (6 to 8) to 2 days. Sorry for not being more
> detailed.
>
> Let me clarify.
>
> 10 PM: fat is eaten. Bile is discharged and mixes with oil and
> juice within an hour (which is being very generous here since it
> is a liquid and needs very little digestion and passes out of the
> stomach quickly, probably within 20 minutes)
>
> With little in the digestive tract, the mixture flows through the
> intestines and will do it rather quickly.
>
> 1 AM: the oil has probably made it a good way through the system
> and has coated the intestine to a degree. So within 3 hours the
> bile system is now lacking bile acids that did not get re-
> absorbed.
>
> The blood that circulates from the ileum to the liver goes there
> really fast, so you can assume that by 1 am that there is now a
> lack of bile acids in the liver and that the gobs are starting to
> form.
No, I cannot assume this. YOU assume this. Nevertheless, they are now IN THE LIVER, not out in the small intestine. Being gobs, as you call them, and not water soluble, to boot, they probably aren't going anywhere fast.
> 2 AM: The stones are forming and are passing through the ducts
> making their way to the GULL and the common ducts.
>
> 3 AM: The stones are passed into the intestine and are making
> their way to daylight (the toilet).
>
> 6 AM: Some stones are probably have made their way into the
> colon. Remember all this time, there is still a lack of bile
> acids because of the oil film which by now is probably starting to
> decline and some re-absorption is taking place. So stone
> formation in the liver by this time is already declining. The
> blood carrying the bile acids (or really lack there of) has been
> through the liver many times by now.
OK, so, basically, you're asserting that these stones can be formed in five hours. To establish this data as a theory, I suggest you test this one.
> 8 AM: You first bowel movement shows some stones. You may get
> lots or a few. It depends on how things went in the guts.
>
> 10 AM till 24 hours later: The system has cleared and bile acids
> are now being reabsorbed well and the body has most likely
> attempted to replace them naturally.
"most likely" -- this is another way of saying "let's assume". You're just making guesses here. In fact, you're making tons of them all throughout your argument.
> You will get the last of the stones passing out during this time.
> Everybody is different. There is not one person that will follow
> this exact schedule. This is merely to demonstrate how it can
> happen and how I believe it happened for me.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like. There may be merit to your argument. But since you want to feign "scientificness", you need to test it. From a stone in five hours. Start.
> If you question my timing, for me, after a fast I can eat nothing
> but Watermelon and pass it on an empty gut within 2-3 hours. So
> if you question my timing on the stones traveling through and
> empty gut, this is my scientific proof. The Watermelon seeds and
> some pulp sure looked like they were from the Watermelon I ate. I
> did not taste it or try to plant the seeds to see if a watermelon
> would grow from them however. So, now that I think of it maybe my
> scientific study lacks factual data and I cannot conclude that it
> was truly the seed and pulp from the watermelon. It must have been
> something else that I did NOT eat. Rats, I though I had something
> going with that study! Sorry, just trying to add a little humor.
The only thing that has ever resulted in green things from me was unchewed peas, and liver flushes. You haven't adequately explained the green "stones" (or gobs or whatever). Calcified bile? Congealed bile? Well, then, you haven't adequately explained the function of the epsom salt, which acts as a laxative by drawing water to the intestines (unless the label or my Epsom Salt is lying to me). Given that the bile is concentrated by the gall bladder by removing water, shouldn't adding water to the system restore the bile to its less bilious state? I know when I go in the morning, the diarrhea I have is far more than the cup of fluid (half cup oil, half cup grapefruit juice) than I drank.
It's just common sense, after all...
> How can you accept the information of the “older texts” you
> mention as did they give you scientific proof and scope the liver
> and ducts to get and absolute, concrete time frame on how long it
> takes a stone to form?
The word "even" here is used to suggest that the old texts and the new and everyone and his mother gets that these stones don't form overnight (although there may be some substance we could consume to cause it to occur...).
> You deny my opinion and knowledge of this topic yet you blindly
> accept their opinion without any merit or data to support it?
Blindly? No merit? No data to support it? Show me a gall stone which forms in six hours.
> John, I could say something nasty about you right now, but instead
> I’ll resort to “you need to put your foot in your mouth and
> practice what you preach.”
Hmmm... YOU're the one who tried to offer your "thinking" about the topic to explain why flushing is dangerous and doesn't work. You're the one who wanted to act all "scientific" about it.
I don't have all the answers. I don't even have all the questions. But I certainly don't reject something because I can "explain" why it "can't work". I've read too much history to know that hubris is exactly the thing which impedes human progress.
> If you re-read my post, I explain that calcified stones TAKE A
> LONG TIME TO FORM. It is not beyond reason to think that the
> little soft stones could be made in several hours?
No, it's not unreasonable at all. But you're discouting MY EVIDENCE as well as the evidence of a number of posters to these forums of *genuine* gall stones which have come out -- some even laboratory tested. Unless they're all lying... in which case, maybe so are you. Who do I trust? People whose observations coincide with mine, or those of someone who's trying to foment, covertly, under the guise of "scientific thought", worry over the safety of the procedure?
Your theory doesn't explain my gall stones. It might very well explain the Tic-Tac sized ones. Your theory says that the 2 cm stones should hurt like hell coming out, and yet there they sit, in my toilet, hexagonal as you please.
> You can produce semi-solid mucous balls in you throat and sinuses
> in several hours. I believe that your liver is totally capable of
> producing these soft stones. I think it is very possible.
That's nice, but you're THINKING, not LOOKING. Mucus is not cholesterol... is it?
> John, I am fully aware that your body can compensate very well to
> things. If you get a duct obstruction that is well inside the
> liver, that portion of the liver will not function well but the
> remainder will take on the duty of cleaning the blood etc. But,
> if you get a major or total blockage in the common bile duct, you
> will get very sick in a short period of time. No ifs, ands, or
> butts (ha ha, get it). Call you local liver/biliary doctor and
> inquire for yourself.
Yeah, if you happen to get a stone stuck in your biliary tract and happen to block the pancreatic duct, you're in a world of deep hurt.
No argument there.
But, then again, the assertion from the "other side" is that this major blockage is the basic cause behind allergies. In other words, the body DOES show symptoms of this major difficulty -- but "modern medicine" does not recognize it for what it is, being focused on treating symptoms and not causes.
> Again “foot in mouth” applies to your comments here. I mentioned
> that God designed this system so that it will function very, very
> well and overcome adversity as you mention. But, you then deny
> the ability of the liver to function normally on its own without
> intervention from you and your flushes?
You deny the ability of the system to operate without modern medicine and its drugs? Modern medicine and its operations? Modern medicine and its radiation?
"God helps those who help themselves."
First of all, could you please ask God to come by and straighten me out on my doubt that you are as chummy with Him as you seem to think you are? And if you wouldn't mind, I'd really like a copy of the human blueprint you keep refering to.
Second, the liver probably functions just fine on its own until environmental toxins start fouling up the system. That's my opinion; it has no particular basis in fact. That the bile system has a means of eliminating the stones at all is a testament (no pun intended) to the strength of the system.
But, yeah, sometimes, the body needs a little help.
I don't believe in waiting around for God to solve my problems.
> You contradict yourself here. Can it over come adversity or not?
Yes, it can, with help. But that wasn't the point. You were arguing that a 50% blockage should result in massive awareness by the organism that something is wrong. I showed both via "common sense" and by analogy that a 50% blockage, achieved gradually over time, wouldn't necessarily make the being aware of what's going on. I further asserted that the liver would continue to operate to the best of its ability under those circumstances, which wouldn't be great, but would still be "functioning". You have attempted to twist my meaning.
> Can it clear its self normally or not? Does it really require
> your help? I believe that in some cases that it may because if
> the organ is diseased or extremely abused it will not function as
> intended.
And on this point, we agree. Environmental toxins are my hypothetical villain here, although parasites might be the villain's sidekick.
> But it is my opinion that these cases are not that common and that
> the liver will not ”filled” with stones in a majority of
> individuals.
Based on what? What is the basis for your opinion? Your own bias, two flushes, and ignoring the posts and other data provided on this web site?
> People with extreme allergies may have blockages in certain
> portions of the liver and I mentioned that in my last post. It is
> possible. But I don’t believe the flush will loosen those
> blockages.
And those allergy sufferers who have eliminated their allergies after having done these useless flushes are pleased to know your opinion, I'm sure.
>The herbs may be capable of breaking them down if they are stuck in a duct.
>
> If you block the flow of bile from the liver, you are going to
> have more than allergies. A partial blockage could give allergy
> symptoms and flushing could help, I never denied this. I just
> don’t think these stones back all the way up into the liver like
> that.
Based on what fount of knowledge do you make this claim? WHAT ON EARTH gives you this opinion, besides personal bias? You have no idea, personally, what causes allergies, but you can certainly discuss in great detail what doesn't!
> Have some people doing the flushes actually had worst symptoms? I
> believe I have read several posts here that they have. This may
> be because you end up forming more stones behind one that may be
> stuck due to the bile acid drop in the newly produced bile.
Lot's of "I believe". Your hypothesis might actually have some merit, and some portion of the stones might in fact be caused by the process of flushing itself. But you're a LONG way from validly proclaiming yourself an expert, as you haven't accounted for a long list of additional data.
> Yes, I will direct you to it. It’s on the first Liver Flush
> page. Just scroll down and you will see it. This raises a
> question. How many “healthy” non-diseased livers have you seen
> loaded with stones? Surely the medical community (which I’m not
> to found of) would establish this in its dissecting of 100’s
> of “healthy” livers for students and research in the past. How
> come they never report or document that they found loads of stones
> plugging up what they though were healthy livers? How come many
> diseased livers that are dissected almost regularly do not show
> hundreds of stones in all the ducts? As these diseased livers
> would most likely have more stones in them than a normal healthy
> liver, right? It just does not add up.
Hmmm... how closely do they examine the liver during an autopsy when the cause of death was clearly a bullet to the brain, or old age, or cancer? Really no point, is there?
Do psychiatrists warn parents that Ritalin has a known side effect of suicidal tendencies when coming off the drug (you have to go to older version of the Physician's Desk Refernce, BTW, to see this -- conveniently, newer editions have it removed) before encouraging parents to feed it to their kids?
Do surgeons warn patients of the possible dangers of gall bladder surgery before hauling patients off to get their gall bladders ripped out of them? Hell, my doctor told me fourteen months ago that I would have to have my gallbladder out. Nyah, nyah. I asked him if there were alternatives. He said that with any alternative, the stones would just come back, and he mentioned, really, only a pulverizing procedure which breaks up the stones (which he discouraged), and described some studies on some drugs which were used to try to soften the stones, but which didn't have much success.
Do the winners of wars ever focus on the atrocities they've committed in their historical accounts?
> John its all in design. The birth canal was DESIGNED to stretch
> like that so your analogy is a poor one. I don’t think God for-
> saw “golf balls” coming down the pike. And if he did, he would
> have compensated by leaving out all the nerve cells! Ouch!
> Stone that cause great pain in passing through the common duct and
> gull are the size of a marble. They cause great pain. Some
> people use flushes that do not use EPSOM salt, the supposed duct
> dilator. They claim to pass very large stones with no pain. This
> is nuts, just ask someone that has had an acute GULL / common duct
> blockage. I’ll bank my IOTA on the pain that people suffer from
> with acute attacks.
I have suffered the pain of acute attacks. I passed gall stones then. I've passed gall stones recently without pain.
But, again, I'd really like to see your human blueprint. And, while you're at it, if He would have compensated by leaving out all the nerve cells, could you please ask Him why he didn't compensate by eliminating the pain-bearing nerve cells in the cervix and vagina?
Oh, wait, it's that whole "penalize woman" thing, right? It's that whole "woman is responsible for all our problems" bull shit, right?
Again, you presume to know the will of God, here, which is very entertaining, but not getting us anywhere.
In any case, I notice you didn't reply to my request that you visit http://www.goatse.cx/ to see how wide a man could stretch his anus for you. Surely, your common sense dictates that a man shouldn't be able to stretch his anus that wide, since no feces to be removed from it would ever come out that large, and yet there he is doing it (and how gross it looks!). So... the anus can be opened that wide, but the biliary tubing simply cannot, all because you have the human blueprint and know better than the rest of us what the system is capable of. Gotcha.
> John, you are batting without a bat. I mentioned nothing about
> knowing God’s will but merely gave him the glory for make a
> masterpiece, the human body and all its systems.
You've implied that you know God's will several times, actually.
> The % I used is merely an estimate. If you are not satisfied with
> this estimate, you can help me provide proof. I’ll shove a wedge
> in your common bile duct so that you only pass 50% of your bile
> and then we will wait to see how long it take for you to get
> sick. Then we can share this scientific data with everyone. You
> up for that?
Um, you're Sam Scientist here, shove your wedge up your own bile duct.
> Yes severe symptoms take a while to show up. But, you must
> realize that most people have been conditioned by themselves and
> doctors to ignore or suppress the bodies warning signs. Again you
> disgrace the wonder of our bodies that God has given us. People
> go years with minor pain and just ignore it. I do it myself. If
> you LISTEN to your body and not just take a drug to cover up the
> symptoms, you will hear its warnings. They are called symptoms.
> People go tired and with little energy for YEARS, then when they
> suddenly get diagnosed with a disease they say they never saw it
> coming. What a crock. The lack of energy for 30 years was a
> symptom. They just ignore it like most of us do. Listen to your
> body and it will tell you it has problems.
Yes, like fatigue, allergies, eczema, digestion problems, etc., etc., etc.
I do not disgrace anything. You disgrace yourself by feigning knowledge of God's human blueprint, of His very will, and a half-assed effort to discredit something you know very little about and have experienced very little of yourself.
> John, thanks again for all the insults. It is nice to know the
> real you. It seems that you have a problem with considering
> others opinions that differ from your own. I’m not interested in
> quibbling with you about how you believe my opinions are so far
> gone. I can back them with references on chemistry, pictures, and
> literature that I have read that enable me to form my opinions.
> I did not pull them out of thin air. My intention is pass
> information to others and learn more about this issue.
>
> For all those who are interested I will create a reference sheet
> and e-mail to you at your request.
Your whole effort was an insult; you deserved nothing less.
The real me is not afraid to speak my mind or stand up to an attack.
Then again, the real me isn't afraid to look at something, or to find out.
Your whole effort in coming here and "doing a flush" was to try to prove it wrong.
You have failed.
Your methodology wouldn't pass muster in a first year Chem course, let alone out in the open.
=-John-=
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flush…. Webmaster
22 y
3,559
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flu... Mark
22 y
3,880
- Re: My theory on the liver flush….I ... Laura
22 y
4,334
R
This is a reply to # 65,535So much about our health or lack thereof is such a matter of dispute that I don't think anyone can state ANYTHING with impunity. What works for you may not and probably will not work for me. I know that my personal experience with allopathic medicine was a joke. I went through a battery of tests for months and at the end was told and I quote "You may or may not have gone through early onset menopause. You have functional cysts that are consistant with that finding but the only way to know for sure would be to biopsy your ovaries and even that would not present positive proof" So much for allopathy. This all started when I had gained 36 pounds in less than 30 days without having changed my diet or exercise program, I had never been heavy before. I took this as a sign that something was wrong. When I got to the doctor, I was told by a 300 lb nurse with bags you could pack for a week in under her eyes that they had programs for people who could not control their eating. I should have run far and fast right then. What I had done, though, was quit smoking and go off birth control pills thinking that would be a path to better health. Following the initial weight gain, I began to miss periods. Over a 2 year period, I gained a lot of weight and stopped menstruating althogether. I now know that there were a lot more factors at play here. Liver function being primary.
So much of what we hear, even in the naturopathic community is contradictory. Dr. Schulze says use citrus and a mainly raw foods diet, and according to Julia at sensiblehealth, salads and raw foods may weaken the spleen and she avoided citrus in returning her liver to health. So there you are, no matter who you listen to, it comes down to the fact that what works for you may not work for me.
Then there is the emotional and mental component to take into consideration. Emotional trauma can be stored anywhere in the body and the mental decision to release this trauma can play a bigger part than anything. In that respect, you could consider that when a person is ready to release what past even is stored in their liver, the oil etc. is just a ritual to be used to symbolise the cleansing of these issues and tissues. In which case, no scientific argument for or against is relevant.
We can posturize, analyze and scrutinize these good people's stories of success to death and no amount of theory will be able to discount them. Because for all of them, it is not the theory behind the action but the result which counts and for the most part I see people having good results from cleansing. There is much evidence of our physicality being governed by our mentality and producing results that the scientists say are impossible.
For me, I prefer to believe in the impossible. As Lewis Carrol says:
I can believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
My understanding is that your post was meant to encourage people to use moderation in order to minimize the possible side effects of a flush. And to make people understand that not all of what they were seeing might be what they thought it was. I respect the caring behind it and the notion that moderation is key. I think you are very likely right that SOME of what is seen in the toilet can be a direct result of what was ingested to perform the flush. However, stones have been passed this way which were tested and proven in labs, people have reduced or rid themselves of allergies, pain and other symptoms using this technique and the results are there.
I appreciate all of the people on this list for being passionate in their quests for health and willingness to share what has worked for them. I personally have never performed a flush, and am in process of a bowel cleanse. I fully intend to flush after this cleanse is finished and I know I will feel better for it. The proof as they say is in the pudding. And people here have the proof. I could certainly, and have, abuse my body in worse ways than to drink a little or even a lot of oil.
Thanks for your time,
Laura- Re: My theory on the liver flush….I ... Mark
22 y
3,530
This is a reply to # 65,561Advertisement
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Laura,
Your comments hit the nail on the head. My intentions are just as you stated. I'm here to help and I never once had any intent of scaring people about the flush. I merely wanted to disclose that which I have learned about this process. I'm sure it does and will help people, its just that many tend to go overboard with things like this.
Most things have pros and cons and people need to be fully aware of both sides of the coin in order to make a good judgement. I'm not against the flush at all, as I have done it myself.
Good luck on your journey for health and well-being.
Mark
- Re: My theory on the liver flush….I ... Mark
22 y
3,530
- Re: My theory on the liver flush….I ... Cookie
22 y
3,711
This is a reply to # 65,535Hello Mark,
Thank you for all of your opinions and suggestions (smile). However, for me I found some of the information somewhat convoluted. At any rate, I do believe the stones are truly gallstones; you may get some residual oil and possibly even form tiny stone like particles from some of the oil. However, it doesn't make any sense at all that these stones are forming overnight (8-10 hr span). Also, my sister and brother-in-law both have done the cleanses and she only got out black, brown and tan, red stones. So where did all the olive oil forming stone stuff go then? Also, I have had 4 colonics back to back and no stones came out then so its not feces. Prior to my doing an olive oil liver flush, I did an enema retention liver flush. I definitely believe, I got things moving around in my liver so much so that a stone may be repositioned causing mild discomfort. So even before ever taking the olive oil the stones where there causing me discomfort. I didn't have that discomfort prior to shaking things up in there only after the enema Liver Flush and prior to the olive oil flush. So each to its own, but I definitely believe they were there prior to ANY kind of flushing and the flushing has really helped with renewed energy and overall well being. I'm now taking GCG herb to break down larger stones so they will pass with my next flush. I guess we all believe what we see and experience not so much what others tell us.
Cookie
- Re: Your hypothesis on the liver flu... John Cullison
22 y
4,023
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