Miles J. Stanford 
Toonces
18 y
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Hi Suzugos,
I noticed that you cut and pasted from the Miles J. Stanford website http://www.withchrist.org/center.htm , criticisms of Oswald Chambers, Martyn Lloyd Jones, John MacArthur, Walter Martin and others. I find it interesting that you are going after these men who have faithfully proclaimed the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Each of these men would be the first to admit that they are not infallible or without error, unlike some who do/did claim to be without error on matters of faith, such as the pope, Joseph Smith, and Ellen White.
After Jesus Christ and the Apostles, every man's writings is subject to error. That certainly includes the people you have criticized and that definitely includes Miles J. Stanford. In fact, Miles made Phil Johnson's bad theology webpage:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/bad.htm (scroll down to find Miles)
Phil had this to say about Miles J. Stanford:
Here you will find the musings of the late Miles Stanford, self-appointed guardian of dispensational truth. Stanford was devoted to some of the more arcane idiosyncrasies of early dispensationalism. He insisted, for example, that Paul introduced a new and different gospel, not the same message preached by the other Apostles. Stanford was piqued by modern dispensationalists who have abandoned these and other bizarre features of Darbyism and Scofieldism. He wrote and distributed papers attacking those whom he believed were drifting. Those papers, and several of Stanford's other writings, are here.
Phil maintains the Spurgeon website and the Hall of Church History website. Both are outstanding. Check them out:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm
I do not want to debate this topic with you. Perhaps you would like to email Phil and explain why Miles does not deserve such an honor.
I am posting this for the sole purpose of exhorting you to pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Don't get bent out of shape on secondary issues such as dispensationalism, the gifts of the Spirit, age and mode of baptism, etc. Christians can respectfully disagree on these topics. But we must remain united on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Secondary issues should never be a source of division, but they do divide when people make them primary and elevate them equal to or over the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a debate forum here for that purpose, if you are so inclined. However, I do exhort you to focus, like a lasar beam, on the Gospel of our Lord and SaviorJesus Christ.
Finally, I have one question for you. Are you friends with Batchman and/or Tetelestai? They are the only others I have ever seen who have cut and pasted from Miles J. Stanford's website.
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- Re: Miles J. Stanford Ev
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- Re: Miles J. Stanford Toonces
18 y
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MoreThis is a reply to # 407,455Hi Ev,
Thanks for your words of encouragement! I am always blessed by love, joy, and wisdom you bring to this forum!
- Re: Miles J. Stanford Toonces
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- Kudos Toonces! Alikat
18 y
6,272
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This is a reply to # 407,452I know you are a very unassuming and quiet person, never the less I commend you for the defense of Christianity as being the message of Christ crucified, and not about picking at divisive straws. I understand standing up for the diverse heresies that have cropped up in our days, but some issues are just not conducive to growth and are not germaine to salvaton. One would think we have enough detractors from the outside, but guess not.
I pray you are feeling better. It's always good to see you here. Blessed New Year to you and yours.- Re: Kudos Toonces! califlady
18 y
6,517
This is a reply to # 407,457Alikat, how sweet it is to see you at the zone again. How you are missed here on the support fourm. The wisdom God works through you is always such a blessing to behold!
I hope this new year finds you feeling good and walking close to the Lord.
God bless,
Love, Sharon- WOW, thank you Sharon !! Alikat
18 y
6,263
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This is a reply to # 407,464So nice to have a warm greeting sent my way, I really appreciate that :-))
I haven't been very far away, just a little keyboard shy and battle weary. I'm slowly re-integrating myself back to Curezone.
I can honestly say that I've missed all of my dear brethren here.
Many blessings to you and everyone else. Keep looking up!!!!
- WOW, thank you Sharon !! Alikat
18 y
6,263
- Re: Kudos Toonces! Toonces
18 y
6,564
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Hi Alikat,
Thanks for your kind words. It's always wonderful to see your posts and I hope to see more in the future. I know it can be nice to take a break from the zone for a while. Thanks for your prayers--they are greatly appreciated. May God bless you and your family in the year ahead also :-)
- Re: Kudos Toonces! califlady
18 y
6,517
- Re: Miles J. Stanford beej
18 y
6,510
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This is a reply to # 407,452Ellen White never claimed to be infallible. To say she did is an outright lie.
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The pope makes this claim and I couldn't care less what the outlaw Smith said, but Ellen White never did.
- Re: Miles J. Stanford Toonces
18 y
7,043
This is a reply to # 407,459
Beej,
You are rather quick to call me an outright liar. Let me explain why I said Ellen White claimed to be without error in matters of faith.
1. Personal Experience With SDA Pastors:
I earnestly studied with SDA pastors. I never joined the SDA church, but I did hear all they had to say about joining their church. Regarding Ellen White, the two SDA pastors that I studied with told me in no uncertain terms that her writings were considered by the SDA church to be infallible or without error. I was told I could not be water baptised there without believing that. They did also add that the only time Ellen White was 'infallible' was when she was writing on matters of faith. For example they said, 'when Ellen White said pass the potatoes at the dinner table', she was not infallible, but when she was writing any of her books on matters of faith, she was indeed infallible or without error.
Plus, Ellen White's writings were regularly and authoritatively quoted from the SDA pulpit. The book and page number was always given, just as chapter and verses are given when when the Bible is quoted in other churches.
For your information, the pope only claims to infallible or without error, when he is speaking ex cathedra, or on matters of faith. The pope, like Ellen White, never claims to be infallible in his daily life. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm
2. From the official SDA teachings:
From the official fundamental beliefs of the SDA church:
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)3. From the website of former SDA Robert K. Sanders: http://www.truthorfables.com/index.html
The facts are this:
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EGW did not claim infallibility for herself.
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EGW did claim infallibility for her Testimonies and books.
“Yet, now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You thereby insulted the Spirit of God.” Testimonies 5, p.64.
E.G. White is making a claim of infallibility for her Testimonies and anyone that would question them 'thereby insulted the Spirit of God' Robert K. Saunders
3. And even more, EGW considered her writings equal to the prophets and the Apostles
4. She also claimed the amazing ability to tell the difference between truth and error which would make what she writes infallible.
5. SDA leaders teach that EGW is infallible.
For documention of the above 5 points, please go the link below:
http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Writings_Infallible.htm
If Mr. Sanders, who claims to have been an SDA for 37 years is lying, then please let me (and him) know, and I will gladly email him with your proof to the contrary. I hope you will do the same if you have proof he is lying. BTW, he has a compelling testimony which you can access on the left hand side of the page.
I do not believe Ellen White was an infallible prophet.
Do you, as a Seventh Day Adventist, believe Ellen White's writings on matters of faith were infallible or without error?
- Re: Miles J. Stanford beej
18 y
6,448
This is a reply to # 407,465I don't care what Sanders or Saunders or whatever, said. If they lied, then I didn't mean you. But I think You are too willing to pass judgment on hearsay.
I know you say keep the law, and then say forget the Sabbath. That's my beef with you.
I know alot about what Ellen White had to say about herself. I also know how much many of the church leaders hated her.
She's not an issue with me. I can see for myself where she was right.
Even if I wasn't SDA, I would still tell you that we have to keep the Sabbath.- Re: Where's the beef? Toonces
18 y
6,569
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Beej,
I have no 'beef' with you. Do you also have a 'beef' with the other Christians in this support forum, or is it just me?
I respect your freedom to be a Seventh Day Adventist, although I find it curious that you would not emphatically affirm the infallibility of your church's prophet, Ellen White, on matters of faith.
I respect your freedom to teach and preach SDA doctrines.
As for me, I will continue to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
It seems we will have to agree to disagree.
The Good News
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:19-24
- Re: Where's the beef? beej
18 y
6,477
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This is a reply to # 407,468You weren't talking about Christ. You were talking about Ellen White.
I don't teach SDA. I teach the Sabbath. You decare it to be merely the opinion of sister White, you thereby insulted the spirit of God.
- Re: Where's the beef? beej
18 y
6,477
- beef?...! Alikat
18 y
6,269
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This is a reply to # 407,466Aw, co'mmon Beej. I don't think Toonces has ever said "keep the law and forget the Sabbath". It seems like Toonces always strives to seek the balanced and Scriptural side of every issue. Even so Beej, it's like what Califlady said, it's all about Jesus, who died on the cross for the atonement of our sins.
We love you Beej, and we love Toonces, and it's about time love made it's reappearance on this forum. We don't need to have 'sloppy agape', but we ALL need to be ever so discerning of the true body of Christ. *smack with holy kiss* (well, maybe little sloppy....:-)
- Re: beef?...! califlady
18 y
6,559
This is a reply to # 407,475YES! Ali, you are bringing back the loving Christian ways that have been lost here for quite some time. God has prepared you for such a task!! Wow! Has He filled you over these weeks? Awesome! How sweet to have you writing such works of wisdom.
Beeg...it is true, we do love you. Lets talk about Jesus! I would like to know your story. When were you saved?
Many blessings,
Sharon- Re: beef?...! beej
18 y
6,267
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This is a reply to # 407,476I'm still trying to be saved. I never look at it as a done deal.
I know that no one can snatch me from His hand, but I must keep from falling out on my own.- Re: beef?...! Toonces
18 y
6,629
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Beej,
When I studied with SDA's I met many kind, loving, sincere people, like you. However, I met so many who said just what you did...that they were still 'trying' to be saved. They believed their salvation depended on how ~perfectly~ they kept the law, especially the Sabbath. They never had the assurance of their salvation. The group I was with was far more focused on the Sabbath, rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel was not discussed. What was discussed were Sabbath do's and don'ts, soul sleep, Sunday is the mark of the beast, vegetarianism -- plus we were taught drinking coffee and tea was a sin, and the many writings and prophecies of Ellen White. As I said, the Gospel was not mentioned. They didn't understand that we are saved to DO good works, we're not saved BY our good works. They didn't understand that good works are the FRUIT of our salvation, NEVER the ROOT of our salvation.
You say that you don't 'teach SDA', you teach 'the Sabbath'. I've seen you teaching SDA doctrines such as soul sleep, annhilationism, Michael the archangel is a title for Christ, Sunday worship is the mark of the beast, the Sabbath, etc. These are SDA teachings. Whether or not they are Biblical the way you (and the SDA church) teach them is very debatable. (And I don't want to debate you on these issues.) I've settled them in my heart a long time ago through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I do respect your convictions, although we disagree.
I invite you to explore Des Ford's ministry, which is all about bringing the Gospel to the world. For many SDA's, Des Ford's ministry is first time they came to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like you, Des Ford is a Sabbatarian, but he knows that he is saved by looking to Jesus Christ and His righteousness, NOT by how ~perfectly~ he can keep the Sabbath, and ALL other aspects of the law.
Des Ford's Website: http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org
Sadly, there is a split in Seventh Day Adventism. Des Ford tried to bring the truth of the Gospel from within the SDA Church, and he was defrocked for it. Now his ministry works from the outside, but he is proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of God is setting people free.
The Walter Martin-Des Ford interview I posted is an excellent example of two men who have serious theological differences, but they remain united on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe everyone can learn much from those messages, especially the kindred spirit of brotherhood between these two men who have so many significant theological differences. The only safe alliance to make with another is around the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is building on the solid Rock of Jesus Christ.
http://www.waltermartin.com/realaudio.html
For anyone interested, here is another link to an excellent sermon on the Sabbath, from a New Testament perspective:
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/archive.php (scroll down to 7-31 True Sabbath Keeping)
I will say this of my Seventh Day Adventist friends. The main thing they taught me was how utterly incapable I am of perfectly keeping the law--ALL of the law, and how much I needed a Savior. I am so thankful for the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't praise my Savior enough for what He has done for me!!! I will forever proclaim Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Ro 10:3-4- Re: beef?...! beej
18 y
6,533
This is a reply to # 407,483I don't know about you, but I have free will. I can quit any time I choose. Just like satan. It's to bad the the SDA pastor that worked with you was such a dip.
It's not a sin to drink coffee, tea or even wine.
You can never be saved by keeping the law perfectly. Relationships have rules though.
For example, I don't lie to my wife and I have faith in her.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteouness, hath not attained to the law of righteusness.
:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
Any pastor that would say that Ellen White was infallable is equal to a quack.
Was Moses infallable? He was told to speak to the rock to get water. He got mad and hit the rock with a stick. Who was the rock?
How about Daniel? He didn't understand the vision from God.
How about Elijah? He thought he was the only one left.
How about John the baptist? He asked if Jesus was the one, or should we look for another.
How about John on the island of patmos? He bowed down to an angel.
- Re: beef?...! Toonces
18 y
6,652
This is a reply to # 407,502
Beej,
I don't know what you mean by 'quit', other than to quit working to be saved.
My advice to you would be to quit trusting in your works by 'trying to be saved', and look completely to Jesus Christ and His righteousness alone for your salvation. Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Find your rest in Christ alone. Continue with your good works, but understand they are the fruit of your salvation, not the root of it.
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Romans 4:4-8
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:28
I understand that Moses and the others you listed were not infallible in their personal lives. However, what Moses and the others wrote in the Bible was indeed infallible or without error.
Do you believe the writings and books of Ellen White are infallible or without error, as the SDA Church teaches? I understand that Ellen White was not infallible in her personal life, as the men of Bible you listed were not.
Also, I do not believe the SDA pastors I studied with were dips or quacks. Deceived, yes. I understand they were faithfully following traditional SDA teachings which include the teachings of Ellen White. Please understand that the pastors I studied with said the writings of Ellen White were infallible, not her personal life. Apparently that's why they taught, from the pulpit, that drinking coffee and tea were a sin. I also understand that not all SDA pastors feel this way about coffee and tea. I agree with you that it is not a sin to drink coffee, tea or wine.
My final point is that you can know for sure that you are saved. http://www.711.net/gospel/doyouknow.html
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- Re: beef?...! beej
18 y
6,358
This is a reply to # 407,508You have it backwards. I mean I could quit having faith in God and put my faith in myself. That's what I meant by using satan as an example.
We love God because He loved us first. We show our love for Him by being faithful.
If I say I love my wife and then am not faithful, my love is worthless.
We don't keep the law to be saved, but because we are saved. That way we will stay saved.
You can't make money your god and live a selfish life and stay saved. It's this type of thing that we must always work against. The ten commandments are our guide to success in this work. It's a never ending battle.
God said that, Ellen White merely points this out. To say this is merely the opinion of sister White is to insult the Spirit of God.- Re: beef?...! Toonces
18 y
6,580
This is a reply to # 407,513
Good Morning Beej,
First you say to Califlady, in response to her question, When were you saved?.
I'm still trying to be saved. I never look at it as a done deal.
Now, without missing a beat, you say:
We don't keep the law to be saved, but because we are saved. That way we will stay saved.
It's obvious you don't understand what it TRULY means to 'keep the law'. You don't know how sinful your heart really is and how incapable you are of perfectly keeping God's law. God demands perfection from us. That's why you a need a Savior. I pray this site will help you to see the real depth of your sinfulness: http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ On judgment day you will either be judged according to the law or grace. If you do not trust completely in Christ and His merits, you will be judged solely on your own merits. If you are not perfect, you will be condemned.....and no one except our Lord has been or will be perfect.
I've met many SDA's like you, never knowing if they were saved or not. Never knowing if their Sabbath keeping was good enough or how they would fare in the 'investigative judgment'. I do hope you tune into the Martin-Ford interview to learn the truth about the 'investigative judgment'.
I can see from your responses to my posts that you want to go round and round in circles without getting anywhere. You have once called me an outright liar and you have now twice accused me of 'insulting the Spirit of God'. You have refused to answer the simplest of questions from me, and you have not commented on the Bible verses and main points I have addressed. Beej, I can see you have little respect for my attempts to share the Gopsel with you and I will be moving on to reach others. It appears we must agree to disagree.
I can see you don't want to hear the truth from me, and that's ok. I know only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to see. As I said before, I have no beef with you. I will leave you with a few excellent websites for you to explore. Please read the testimonies on each site, they are compelling. Real people, trapped in legalism, who were set free by the Spirit of God through the glorious Gospel of Grace, of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
May God bless you as your study His Word.
http://www.sdaoutreach.org/testimonies.cfm (be sure to read these compelling testimonies of people who are saved)
http://www.gospeloutreach.net http://www.gospeloutreach.net/sda.html
I exhort you to do a study on the book of Galatians. Pray, seek the Holy Spirit.
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? .... Gal 3:1-3
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3:10-14
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1Co 2:2
Expand 16 messages, 21 to 36 of 36 beej
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- Re: beef?...! Toonces
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- Re: beef?...! beej
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- Re: beef?...! Toonces
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- Re: beef?...! beej
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- Re: beef?...! Toonces
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- Re: beef?...! beej
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- Re: beef?...! califlady
18 y
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- Re: Where's the beef? Toonces
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- Re: Miles J. Stanford Toonces
18 y
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- Re: Miles J. Stanford Ev
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