Name that enzyme challenge!! 
ez040868
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Garcia, and I am sure others, believe that proetiens in our food are essential to the digestive process....this is not ture!! I can name all the enzymes secreted by the human body, where they are secreted from, what stimulates this secretion, and the mechanisim of action of each of these enymes (active site recognition ect).
Now the challenge I am going to throw out there is for someone (anyone) to name a enzyme(s) that is derived from food and is necessary for human digestion. As each enzyme derived from food is presented (hopefully with some supporting reference) I will name one of the human digestive enzymes and how this enzyme functions and where it comes from...sound fair?
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- Misleading "challenge" garcia
20 y
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Your "challenge" is misleading and erroneous. Of course the human body (if healthy) *can* manufacture enzymes.
The point is that to do so requires an enormous amount of energy and is deleterious over the long run to the health and wellbeing of human body.
The less enzymes our food contains, the more our body's have to supply, and the greater the digestive stress on our body.
- Not misleading at all!! ez040868
20 y
5,163
This is a reply to # 390,643quote: "Your "challenge" is misleading and erroneous. Of course the human body (if healthy) *can* manufacture enzymes.
The point is that to do so requires an enormous amount of energy and is deleterious over the long run to the health and wellbeing of human body.
The less enzymes our food contains, the more our body's have to supply, and the greater the digestive stress on our body" endquote
To follow your logic and beliefs a bit further lets explore some things that msut occur for your statements to be true. If teh body conserves making enzymes based on what enzymes are present in the food itself there must be some feedback system. You are stating, indirectly, that teh body has the capability to detect which enzymes are present in the food and thus do not have to be made and also can detect which enzymes are not present in food and which must be made.
Starting with the salivary glands what is the detection (receptors) responsible for detecting enzymes in food? Where are these receptors located? What chemical messenger system is utilized to tell the salivary glands to produce or not produce amylase or lysozyme?
Now in the stomach what receptors are utilized to detect which enzymes should be made or which should not be made? What is the chemical messenger that is used to transmit this information to the cells lining the stomach which produce the enzymes secreted into the stomach? There has to be some communication and recognition for the system to work as you outline.
The same applies for the pancrease. How does the body determine which enzymes the pancrease should or should not make? How does the body differentiate between the thousands of proteins contained in a food source...plant or animal and decide which ones are digestive enzymes and which ones should be broken down for nutrients? What is the energetic cost of detecting and providing the chemical messenger to the proper organ and cells to prevent a enzyme from being produced?
This feedback system is critical for the body to be able to function as you claim. I have no knowledge of such a receptor system or its chemical messengers....please enlighten me how this is supposed to work!! References always appreciated.
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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This is a reply to # 390,645I am not stating "my beliefs" but nutritional fact. If you refuse to accept it because you need to understand how everything works at the level of minutae (which may be interesting but not necessary for health), then I can not help you.
I am quoting a Nobel-prize winning biochemist who is contradicting what you say based on your undergrad textbook of physiology.
If you disagree with him, or need clarification of his work, I suggest you get in touch with him.
BTW it is "pancreas" not "pancrease"
- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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This is a reply to # 390,647If you want to be technical about what was posted then you should ralize that you quoted a quote of a quote not the direct researchers material. I will look into the claims that you have presented in the first quote however the quote you provided did not contain any of the following information and this portion came from you!!
quote;" The point is that to do so requires an enormous amount of energy and is deleterious over the long run to the health and wellbeing of human body.
The less enzymes our food contains, the more our body's have to supply, and the greater the digestive stress on our body. " endquote
I do expect you to back up your statments with some evidence in how this works...hopefully with the receptor and detection system which are present in the body which control this process. If you don't know you can just say so but if you do understand this then please present the evidence or explaination. We aren't really discussing minutia as you would suggest but rather exactly how this digestive process works...but like I said if you don't understand it just say so and maybe someone who does can step forward with the requisite information. I would rather have you looking for this type of information than correcting my spelling errors. Many people would benefit from reading a undergraduate human physiology book....
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
20 y
4,585
This is a reply to # 390,648You seem to be more interested in arguing than anything else. I am not. I am not here to "debate", but for health reasons.
I have stated the position of nutritional Science on enzymes and have provided you with a reference to look up.
If you attempt to understand nutrition purely by reading a textbook on physiology it is hardly surprising that you run into difficulties. It would be like trying to design a spaceship using Euclid as a reference. Very slow going.
- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
20 y
4,692
This is a reply to # 390,649The process of debate involves the presentation of evidence form both sides of the argument. You have made claims which it seems you cannot provide an explaination for and that is OK. I have clearly stated that I will provide the digestive enzymes (with names), where they are secreted from, the stimulus/messenger system responsible for the release of these enzymes. You have been asked to do something similar in producing the names of the food derived enzymes, how the body detects these enzymes and thus knows not to produce these and waste energy, as well as supplying the messenger systems for the communication to the organs involved in the digestive process. So far you have produced a quote of a quote stating that enzymes are released by chewing...not a very complete explaination by any means. As I stated before if you don't understand how this works just say so!!
You also said you would point me to some textbooks which will explain all this for me...please do so!!- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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This is a reply to # 390,652If you want a textbook on nutrition I suggest you go to amazon and do a search. If you want one specifically on enzymes then look up the word "enzyme".
If you want a detailed explanation on the phyiological level of the entire process of digestion and the roles enymes play then I can not help you. This isn't a physiology class.
- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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This is a reply to # 390,654Garcia you were the one who said you would provide me with the name of a textbook which would document your claims...appears you aren't able to provide such a textbook.- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
20 y
4,658
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I am not the one making claims - you are - for which you have provided no supporting evidence. I on the other hand am not reporting my own claims, but those of nutritional Science which you have completely ignored. I have supplied the necessary quote (contradicting your inaccurate claims) and have told you where you can find it. I have also told you that your erroneous views on enzymes are contradicted by every book on nutrition I have ever read. If you are incapable of using a search engine I can not help you.
- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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This is a reply to # 390,662Garcia: "I am not the one making claims - you are - for which you have provided no supporting evidence. I on the other hand am not reporting my own claims, but those of nutritional Science which you have completely ignored. I have supplied the necessary quote (contradicting your inaccurate claims) and have told you where you can find it. I have also told you that your erroneous views on enzymes are contradicted by every book on nutrition I have ever read. If you are incapable of using a search engine I can not help you."
EZ: I believe I posted your exact words in which you stated quite clearly that enzymes from food reduce the energetic cost to the human body and that these enzymes participate in the digestion process.....to loosly paraphrase your post...do you deny this? If not then I would like to know which enzymes are utilized...surely they have a name...don't they? It is obvious that you don't know the answer to my questions but I udnerstand that. You also seem to have modified your original statement of "every book on nutrition" to "every book I have read on nutrition" that is a pretty big modification for one not making claims but not suprising. Your quote of a quote is lacking in a very big point and that is what is the orginal reference where these words were cited from....very necessary for me to understand if this statement is applied to humans, mice or his research on fodder...please provide the orginal reference from teh Nobel prize winner's statement.
Garcia you also seem to be at a loss to expalin how the body would knwo which enzymes to make and which ones it should not make since it just ate some in some food....don't you think this is a pretty important point to understand about your beliefs?? You also said you would provide me with a specific citation for a textbook which would explain your nutrition cliams and beliefs. Please provide this citation so I can look at the material!
If my views on enzymes are erronious it should be very easy for you to provide the answers to the questions I asked about how this could work. Why not give that a shot instead of asking me to prove a negative....You also have agreed with me that the human body can make all the enzymes that are necessary for digestion. You then claim that enzymes from food are involved in the digestion process...I say prove it!! A single quote not properly referenced does not qualify as evidence...now a citation of the original research would qualify!!@- Re: Not misleading at all!! Neo2_000
20 y
5,002
R
This is a reply to # 390,671"Garcia you also seem to be at a loss to expalin how the body would knwo which enzymes to make and which ones it should not make since it just ate some in some food."
Firstly, I welcome your input as any cause for reflection is bound to expose weaknesses in ones preconceptions. However, a reductionist argument involving progressively minute detail is to some degree futile. A prudent mind would admit that this is beyond our capability. Every succeeding generation finds a new level of reductionism and I would remind you of the simple fact that for all his wisdom, man cannot even duplicate a simple blade of grass.
This is not to discourage such research, merely to remind ourselves that todays textbooks are tomorrows folklaw and a humble mind may be the single most valuable factor in arriving at the truth.
Having pondered over this, I think that given our human limitations, a wise course of action might be to appeal to practical examples of what constitutes good health in the real world from observation of individuals and particularly cultures. Perhaps we could balance out the micro with some macro?
"You also said you would provide me with a specific citation for a textbook which would explain your nutrition cliams and beliefs. Please provide this citation so I can look at the material!"
I cannot provide quotes but you asked for a feedback mechanism. I recall reading a book many years ago which suggested that the tonsils are exactly this. It went into some detail and I think that it provided supporting references. But I full admit that I am relating all this from memory and I do not even know if i still have the book. Perhaps some other forum member might have this handy?
I think that anyone would agree that cooking destroys vitamins. From this standpoint alone, it would seem that an unprocessed raw diet would be superior to a heat processed one, notwithstanding grains which are not a desirable food for many reasons.
Neo.
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Cling Ye Cling Ye Lapis
20 y
4,754
This is a reply to # 390,674Advertisement
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Newtonian reductionism is not the true measuring stick of our experience??? It's not the holy grail of science???
Oh my..that is blasphemy. If you were a scientist you'd be black balled from all the "leading" journals (peer reviewed no less). These wonderous journals that are run and controlled by the old school boy's club made up of greed mongers and of mediocre minds, that is.
It is interesting watching a discussion like this one. Proves how futile this kind of logic is. No wonder smoking has never been "proven" to cause lung cancer with this kind of Science leading the way. *sigh*
But yet they cling. The question is why do they cling. For the answer....look to the motivating factors.
- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
20 y
4,495
This is a reply to # 390,675Lapis, there are a great many scientists who understand that tobacco smoke causes cancer. However, that contributes nothing to the topic at hand. Perhaps you can provide an explaination of how the body knows when to stop producing specific enzymes. Garcia and I are in agreement that the body produces all the enzymes necessary for digestion and also that I can name then and the messenger systems that cause these digestive enzymes to be released. The gentleman that was quoted second handedly received his Noble prize in 1945..do you know the source of the quote...original source that is. Do you know why there is no mention of a feedback system for the control of digestive enzymes mentioned in ANY human physiology book? The previous question was in reference to the presence of food enzymes replacing human enzymes in digestion thus saving energy. If no one is capable of supplying some evidence outside of a quote stating " enzymes are released from food" I am going to have to believe that no one udnerstands this process and that there is no evidence to support this notion.
Can anyone describe how this system works???- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye Lapis
20 y
4,558
This is a reply to # 390,677"Lapis, there are a great many scientists who understand that tobacco smoke causes cancer."
Ahhhh but can they prove it. And if so by what criterion. Will others accept the Science modality which attempts to prove.
Does understanding equate to "provable science" whish is the rhetoric you continually cling to in every forum you frequent.
Now I have a couple questions for you.
Do you think Chemo drugs are a good option for treating cancer?
How important of a role does the pharmaceutical industry play in health?
Are mercury Amalgams safe to use?
What is your idea of a healthy lifestyle?
And last but not least....Do you think it is possible for pharma paid plants to frequent such bords as these to cause distractions while citing nonesnense?
And oh yes these questions will contribute to the topic at hand from a holistic rather than a reductionistic veiwpoint. *wink*
Trust me and experience the connectiveness as we explore *THESE* questions.
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- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
20 y
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This is a reply to # 390,679Lapis. I'll take your response to mean that you have no idea of how this postulate might work. A simple "no I don't know how this works" would have been so much easier.
Before answering your questions please explain to me how the answers will contribute to the understanding of how digestion takes place. You seem to want to change the subject awful badly.- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye Lapis
20 y
4,433
This is a reply to # 390,685"Lapis. I'll take your response to mean that you have no idea of how this postulate might work. A simple "no I don't know how this works" would have been so much easier."
I'll answer YOURS when you answer mine.
Trust me it relates. I come from a holistic paradigm which is what this site echoes in its overall tone. I suspect you know that, which is probably why YOU are avoiding the questions all together.
YOU seem to want to avoid MY questions "awful badly".
ez040868, I'll take your response to mean that you have no idea of how *THIS* postulate might work. A simple "no I don't know how this works" would have been so much easier."
Would you prefer we start a new thread where you can answer these questions for me?
- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
20 y
4,539
This is a reply to # 390,686lapis, If you wish to ask those questions start a new thread where it would be appropriate. We were discussing how food derived enzymes might contribute to the digestive process. It appears you don't have any information you wish to contribute...outside of some conditions on my providing answers to questions totally outside of the topic. Why should I provide more answers to questions unrelated to the topic at hand merely to try and elict a response from you on this topic. Makes no sense...either you want to participate in the discussion or you do not! Since this topic was started first why don't we finish up this discussion then move onto your other questions? Now do you have any evidence or a link to the original source of the comments....I don't mind going to the library and looking up the references!!
You ask me to trust you yet you give me no reason for doing so? Why are you trying to change the subject and turn attention to me rather than the process of digestive physiology?? Why start in in the middle of a thread with questions totally unrelated to the topic? What are your motives?? If you don't like my viewpoints that is fine but you now have an opportunity to showcase your knowledge and educate me on how the human body recognizes foreign enzymes and knows not to produce these enzymes......go for it I am ready and willing to learn...but no one seems to be albe to provide any information!!Advertisement
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- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye Lapis
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- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
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- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
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- Feedback Mechanism: Perhaps you over... Neo2_000 20 y 4,561
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- Re: Cling Ye Cling Ye ez040868
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! Neo2_000
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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- Re: Not misleading at all!! garcia
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- Not misleading at all!! ez040868
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- Misleading "challenge" garcia
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