This post is in honor of plankton since they wanted to pop in out of nowhere and do some finger pointing

I posted this here because I did not want this to get buried

I would love to sit here and argue all day. This is not debating. If it were, we would have an official moderator, and someone would be DE CLAREd the winner. So yes I will pop in from time to time. But when see there is no point I will leave.

So first, to plankton you do not know any of the PM's or years of emails between my Wife and Refreshed. So please do not pretend to know their relationship.

As for me coming in and popping out. I am a really busy guy.

As for my wife being angry. I can say with honesty (not just because we are married) She is the most loving, merciful person I have ever met.

Now Jesus braiding a whip and beating the money changers in the temple, that's angry. Paul rebuking Peter to his face, that's angry. But we are not allowed to be angry as Christians are we?

As for tongues what does the bible say about them. Can we test to see if it is really the Holy Spirit.  It does not say they are gibberish.

in the New Testament,

(

in the KJV) by the translators to make the English readable.  It is

in the Manuscripts!  

       In the King James Bible you see some words in italics.  These are words that they had to add to properly translate the Hebrew/Greek into English.  As we can see, they did not always add the right words.  But they were faithful in that they placed the words that they added in italics so that we would know that the words do not appear in the original Manuscripts as such.

         Check your Strong's for the word "unknown" in: 1 Cor 14:2, 1 Cor 14:4, 1 Cor 14:13, 1 Cor 14:14, 1 Cor 14:19, 1 Cor 14:27; it is not there in the printed versions, and in the electronic versions it lists the definition for "tongues" not "unknown."  below we supply the above Scriptures, in them we supply the italics from the printed King James Bible version

1 Cor 14:2
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. KJV

1 Cor 14:4
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. KJV

1 Cor 14:13
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. KJV

1 Cor 14:14
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. KJV

1 Cor 14:19
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. KJV

1 Cor 14:27
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. KJV

       False teachers have seized upon a word that isn't even in the Scriptures and built a whole false doctrine around it.

Acts 2:4-11
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

other:  Greek word #2087 heteros = other or different: 

Tongues:  Greek word #1100 glossa = a language (specially, one naturally unacquired)

In Acts people heard in their own language

Paul said this in 1 Cor 14

9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

I was raised in a neo-pentecostal church with full scholarship to one of the largest regional pentecostal schools at the time.

When I left the Church it was because God was showing me the beginnings of these deceptions.

I have never been to a tongues peaking church that will pass this simple test.

If tongues are spoken I want three people who are interpreters to go to different rooms and give their interpretation.

I will even say if I get 2 out of 3 with the exact same interpretation then I will call it passing the test.

But most churches have people just babbling. Or when the music is jamming like some drug induced trance a voice is elevated. gibberish is spoken and then someone translates the gibberish


I am only taking a cursory look at tongues. Vektek has not said spiritual gifts are not real. They just do not pass the smell test. Also if this was such a critical doctrine it would seem there would be some historic writing on this subject. Since the early church we do not see any writings documenting this. Not until Azusa street does this phenomona surface and even then there is not one recorded source of Xenoglossia taking place. So we are looking at a movement that did not exist until about 100 years ago.



The crux of all these arguments is simple

You say you have some gift? Can I test it against scripture? Does it point people to Christ? Do you talk about what you have done? Or is it all about Christ?

Paul would not even tell us of the vision of heaven because he felt it was boastful. Let alone bragging about who he healed.

5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses—6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.

2 Cor 12


18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Luke 10


So if Jesus told people he had given power over demons not to rejoice in this, why do people rejoice in new "gifts"

It all comes down to Christ. Does it point us to Christ. I will not be responding ( I have work to do in London the rest of the week). I just wanted to explain that no one (including vektek) is denying gifts or the works of the holy spirit. But do they pass the test. And is the spirit being credited for work it did not do. Or is this a new form of Christian mysticism.