Bile in the Colon: Carcinogenic? 
#130264
13 y
9,551
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As someone who's done LF's it caught my attention a few months ago when I read that bile, when it reaches the colon, turns carcinogenic. Don't remember which website I was on, but here are a couple of other sites saying similar things:
http://www.touchgroupplc.com/pdf/3234/bernstein.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0027510701001956
I write this b/c I know some of you have a goal of GB/ Liver Flushing until the bile comes out green. In fact, I even heard Dr. Vincent Medici talk about doing this, and calling it "biliary patency" if I'm not mistaken.
Feel free to pounce on the inaccuracy of this concept. Haven't had much time to do research lately. For all I know it's only SLIGHTLY carcinogenic, the way a touch of charred meat is.
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- Re: Bile in the Colon: Carcinogenic? Michael B
13 y
9,070
This is a reply to # 1,858,226
The bile acids minimally affect the colon since due to the purging action of the Epsom salts.
I think what should be noted in the first article is the following on the liver:
Liver
Mice lacking the farnesoid X receptor that controls the synthesis and export
of bile acids have elevated hepatic bile acids. These mice have frequent liver
tumors, indicating that bile acids have a role in hepatocarcinogenesis.
92,93Children with a deficiency in the bile acid export pump that conveys bile
acids from hepatocyte cytoplasm into bile canaliculi have an increased
incidence of hepatocellular carcinoma.
94In other words, bile acids unable to leave the hepatic ducts cause hepatocellular carcinoma. Thus another imortant healing facet of the liver flush.
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- Re: Bile in the Colon: Carcinogenic. #130264
13 y
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This is a reply to # 1,858,226We all have a goal of achieving thinned out, clear, flowing bile. I'm not saying don't do LF's. I'm just saying as you start to achieve the goal, proceed with caution (and consume lots of fiber). I've read posts of people who seem to think that bile is a cleanser and "good for" the colon. Definitely not the case.
http://www.omicsonline.org/2157-2518/2157-2518-2-101e.pdf
"Since the 1970s it has been generally considered that bile acids are promoters of colon cancer, but lack carcinogenic activity. However, recent evidence indicates that bile acids do, indeed, act as carcinogens."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3429539
"Bile Acids, But Not Neutral Sterols, Are Tumor Promoters in the Colon in Man and in Rodents."
http://www.lef.org/protocols/cancer/colorectal_01.htm
"The digestion of fats requires the activity of normal bile acids that irritate and damage cells lining the colon. Consequently, bile acids activate factors associated with abnormal growth of these cells, resulting in an increased risk of colorectal cancer (Glinghammar B et al 1999; Suzuki K et al 1986)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2819848
"Bile acids act as promoters of colonic tumors in mutagenesis assay systems and in various animal models."
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- Re: Bile in the Colon: Carcinogenic? Hveragerthi
13 y
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This is a reply to # 1,858,226As someone who's done LF's it caught my attention a few months ago when I read that bile, when it reaches the colon, turns carcinogenic. Don't remember which website I was on, but here are a couple of other sites saying similar things:
It has been known for quite a long time that an excess of bile release in to the intestines can increase the risk of intestinal cancer. For example, when someone has had their gallbladder removed. Normally the gallbladder will control the release of bile by squirting out small amounts of bile in doses dependent on oil/fat levels present. When the gallbladder is removed there is no longer a release of small amount of bile, and instead bile gets dumped in to the intestines. Bile is caustic though and will chemically burn the intestinal wall when larger amounts of bile enter the intestines. This chemical burning of the intestinal wall by the excess bile can lead to cellular damage and mutations that can result in cancer.
- pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladder b... unyquity
13 y
14,896
This is a reply to # 1,858,226
This thread is becoming a bit worrisome to me, as I'm thinking there may be some people starting to think that normal bile from a normal gallbladder could be carcinogenic. Yikes.
Of course, when the gallbladder is removed, bile directly from the liver drips 24/7 into the intestinal tract, and if that alkaline bile is not mixed with stomach acid or suitably diluted/neutralized, it can be caustic due to it's alkalinity. And that could surely lead to cellular mutation...no argument there.
However, bile from the gallbladder is typically not caustic.
The pH of liver bile is about 8-8.6, while that of the gall bladder is around 7.
Since bile from the gallbladder is typically measured around a 7 (sometimes less), bile from the gallbladder wouldn't be caustic at all. YAY!
For those interested in learning how these numbers may vary under different circumstances, here's a few searches:
pH + "liver bile": http://www.google.com/search?q=pH+%22liver+bile%22&hl=en&num=20&l...
pH + "gallbladder bile": http://www.google.com/search?q=pH+%22gallbladder+bile%22&hl=en&num=20...
For those doing liver flushes, also remember the bile from the liver or gallbladder will be mixed other substances...
-- some amount of stomach acid (pH around 2)
-- lemon juice (pH around 2)
-- or grapefruit juice (pH around 3)
-- possibly Epsom Salts - if it's still high enough in the GI tract to be mixed with the bile/oil/juice (pH of ES --depending on dilution-- commonly reported to be around 6 - 7.4)
--and some pancreatic lipase to assist in breaking down the oil for assimilation (pH around 8)
--various enzymes, saliva, etc (and the effects & actions of the intestinal microbiota)
...so it's highly unlikely any type of 'caustic alkalinity' is going to be happening (probably not even with a 'liver bile' pH of 8.6).
Blessings of health -
Uny
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... Hveragerthi
13 y
13,890
This is a reply to # 1,859,601
This thread is becoming a bit worrisome to me, as I'm thinking there may be some people starting to think that normal bile from a normal gallbladder could be carcinogenic. Yikes.
Of course, when the gallbladder is removed, bile directly from the liver drips 24/7 into the intestinal tract,
I was not referring to minor dripping. I was talking about the sudden release of large amounts of bile from the ingestion of a lot of fat or oil in the diet after the gallbladder is removed.
and if that alkaline bile is not mixed with stomach acid
Stomach acid is neutralized by bicarbonate as soon as it exits the stomach.
or suitably diluted/neutralized, it can be caustic due to it's alkalinity. And that could surely lead to cellular mutation...no argument there.
The pH of liver bile is about 8-8.6, while
that of the gall bladder is around 7.
How do you explain the fact that bile reflux can not only cause gastritis but also esophageal ulcerations due to the alkalinity? Then there is the difference between colon pH and bile pH. Colon pH is 5.5 to 7, so acidic to neutral. Bile on the other hand as you have shown is basic. Now a lesson on pH. On the pH scale of 0 to 14 each factor of 1 increases the alkalinity or acidity by a factor of 10. For example, a pH of 1 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 3 (a change of two on the pH scale equals 10 X 10, thus 100). A pH of 14 is 100,000 times more alkaline than a pH of 10. Now lets look at the average pH levels of both the colon and bile. The average pH of the colon is roughly 6 while the pH of bile is roughly 8. So we find that bile is therefore 100 times more alkaline than the average pH of the colon. Why people would think that such a drastic pH change could not cause problems is beyond me unless they simply do not understand how the body works. And yes, the bile is going to be altered somewhat by things such as flora acids. But again, I was talking about a sudden large amount of bile being dumped in to the intestines, which would overwhelm any buffering system. It is hilarious though how all the "liver flush" supporters gang up together to vote "agree" on any message any other "liver flush" supporter posts regardless of how misleading or outright wrong the information they posted is.
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... lisamarie23
13 y
9,293
This is a reply to # 1,859,899Dear Science and Logic genius...
The purpose of a Liver Flush is to clear the liver and gall bladder of stones and sludge. Maybe it escaped your capacity for logic but people don't do Liver Flushes when bile is being excreted normally. Or was that too difficult for you to understand? Please go to the Liver Flush Forum and re-read the directions. When bile comes out normally it is time to stop.
Bringing this point up is akin the the directions written on a can of soda explaining how to open it. Some things in life don't need to be explicitly stated. That is, unless the person doing so just loves to be pompous, pedantic, a blowhard, and just generally loves the sound of their own voice or keyklicks in your case.
One episode of bile coming out isn't going to cause any harm. Repeatedly doing flushes with normally functioning liver and gall bladder is not advised. More strawman tactics.
Would you call a tow truck if your car wasn't stuck? Would you then repeatedly call the tow truck to drag your car around if it wasn't stuck? How many people are stupid or illogical enough to do such a thing? Maybe in your world everyone needs to consult you before taking a piss, but not in reality, and certainly not here in curezone where the name of the game is self treatment.
Plus, there is no danger since all of the bile will be bound up in FECAL SOAP!!! LOL. Oops, your bizarro logic backfired again strawman.
- Reply to FS man. #143595
13 y
9,122
This is a reply to # 1,859,913How do you explain the fact that bile reflux can not only cause gastritis but also esophageal ulcerations due to the alkalinity?
Meaningless question!
Bile reflux is not caused by bile itself but from stagnation or blockage of undigested fats or foods from a bile deficiency itself . All the more reason to do the flushes. FLUSH get it fecal soap man, making bile flow! CLEANSE clearing blockage or making stagnating undigested foods move.
Then there is the difference between colon pH and bile pH. Colon pH is 5.5 to 7, so acidic to neutral. Bile on the other hand as you have shown is basic.
Irrelevent.Especially if the flushes are done properly using enemas or colonics after the flushes.
Now a lesson on pH. On the pH scale of 0 to 14 each factor of 1 increases the alkalinity or acidity by a factor of 10. For example, a pH of 1 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 3 (a change of two on the pH scale equals 10 X 10, thus 100). A pH of 14 is 100,000 times more alkaline than a pH of 10. Now lets look at the average pH levels of both the colon and bile. The average pH of the colon is roughly 6 while the pH of bile is roughly 8. So we find that bile is therefore 100 times more alkaline than the average pH of the colon. Why people would think that such a drastic pH change could not cause problems is beyond me unless they simply do not understand how the body works. And yes, the bile is going to be altered somewhat by things such as flora acids. But again, I was talking about a sudden large amount of bile being dumped in to the intestines, which would overwhelm any buffering system. It is hilarious though how all the "liver flush" supporters gang up together to vote "agree" on any message any other "liver flush" supporter posts regardless of how misleading or outright wrong the information they posted is.
The rest is all common knowledge except the whining victim act. But tell me fecal soap man how do we gang up? lol! I vote against you simply because your information is biased and faulty it has nothing to do with anyone else's opinion even though 99.9% of them agree with me.
- Re: Reply to FS man. Hveragerthi
13 y
9,095
This is a reply to # 1,860,127
Right on cue the "liver flush" supporters reply with an insult since they have no real evidence to back up their claims and they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Also right on cue the "liver flush" supporters vote "agree" since they don't have a clue that the post they are voting on was incorrect.
How do you explain the fact that bile reflux can not only cause gastritis but also esophageal ulcerations due to the alkalinity?
Meaningless question!Not at all if you really understood the concept of bile reflux.
Bile reflux is not caused by bile itself but from stagnation or blockage of undigested fats or foods from a bile deficiency itself . All the more reason to do the flushes. FLUSH get it fecal soap man, making bile flow! CLEANSE clearing blockage or making stagnating undigested foods move.
ROTFLMAO!!!! This has to be one of the most entertaining boards on CZ just based on the funny, absolutely ridiculous claims made up by the "liver flush" supporters.
Bile reflux occurs not from bile stagnation, but rather from an improperly functioning pyloric valve. Normally this valve closes quickly to prevent bile from entering the stomach or esophagus. When it is not functioning properly the valve may not close fast enough or completely allowing the bile to escape up in to the stomach and possibly the esophagus. Again, the "liver flush" supporters need to stop making up facts to fit their needs. All this does is show their complete ignorance of the subject and makes them look even more foolish than they already do by believing in the fantasy called "liver flushing".
Then there is the difference between colon pH and bile pH. Colon pH is 5.5 to 7, so acidic to neutral. Bile on the other hand as you have shown is basic.
Irrelevent.Especially if the flushes are done properly using enemas or colonics after the flushes.Again, not irrelevant at all since the topic was how bile affects the colon. Just because you do not understand such a simple concept this does not make it irrelevant.
Now a lesson on pH. On the pH scale of 0 to 14 each factor of 1 increases the alkalinity or acidity by a factor of 10. For example, a pH of 1 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 3 (a change of two on the pH scale equals 10 X 10, thus 100). A pH of 14 is 100,000 times more alkaline than a pH of 10. Now lets look at the average pH levels of both the colon and bile. The average pH of the colon is roughly 6 while the pH of bile is roughly 8. So we find that bile is therefore 100 times more alkaline than the average pH of the colon. Why people would think that such a drastic pH change could not cause problems is beyond me unless they simply do not understand how the body works. And yes, the bile is going to be altered somewhat by things such as flora acids. But again, I was talking about a sudden large amount of bile being dumped in to the intestines, which would overwhelm any buffering system. It is hilarious though how all the "liver flush" supporters gang up together to vote "agree" on any message any other "liver flush" supporter posts regardless of how misleading or outright wrong the information they posted is.
The rest is all common knowledgeAt least you got one thing right.
- Re: Reply to the desperate FS man. #143595
13 y
9,041
This is a reply to # 1,860,280Bile reflux occurs not from bile stagnation, but rather from an improperly functioning pyloric valve. Normally this valve closes quickly to prevent bile from entering the stomach or esophagus. When it is not functioning properly the valve may not close fast enough or completely allowing the bile to escape up in to the stomach and possibly the esophagus.
Good try HV, I knew this would expose you, but this isn't the point at all, the point is that bile reflux has nothing at all to do with release of bile from the Liver Flushes you so desperately want to discredit. You have gone beyond making sense on the issue and every post of yours proves that you would use any source no matter how unreasonable to do so. A pitiful example of a beaten down fecal soap supporter. Your obsession with fecal soap is getting to you and it's obvious.
However I have read from several reliable sources that a slow moving or possibly blocked digestive tract is what forces bile UP and into the stomach and I would believe anyone of them over the unreliable misinformation you have tried to inject onto those who have many years of positive experience compared to your complete lack of experience with the flushes.
- Re: Reply to the desperate FS man. Hveragerthi
13 y
9,204
This is a reply to # 1,860,357
Bile reflux occurs not from bile stagnation, but rather from an improperly functioning pyloric valve. Normally this valve closes quickly to prevent bile from entering the stomach or esophagus. When it is not functioning properly the valve may not close fast enough or completely allowing the bile to escape up in to the stomach and possibly the esophagus.
Good try FS man, I knew this would expose you,You have not exposed anything. Funny though how once again you are posting attacks, and your posts have already been alerted yet not a moderator in site to threaten to ban you for your continual TOS violations.
but this isn't the point at all, the point is that bile reflux has nothing at all to do with release of bile from the liver flushes you so desperately want to discredit.
I never said anything about the so called "liver flushes" in this case. So your twisting of what was said is simply more signs of desperation.
But let me give you a little clue. In order for bile to be refluxed it must first be excreted from the liver or gallbladder in to the intestines. Bile does not go directly from the liver to the esophagus!!!
You have gone beyond making sense on the issue and every post of yours proves that you would use any source no matter how unreasonable to do so. A pitiful example of a beaten down fecal soap supporter. Your obsession with fecal soap is getting to you and it's obvious.
Actually my posts make a lot of sense to most people. This is because unlike the "liver flush" supporters who simply make up whatever facts fit their need I back my claims with real evidence. For example, the LF supporter who falsely claimed that fecal soaps did not really exist and was not even a scientific term. So I posted all those medical abstracts about the existence and formation of fecal soaps. Funny how evidence can be found if it really exists and one looks for it rather than simply denying it because the truth will violate their cultist beliefs.
However I have read from several reliable sources that a slow moving or possibly blocked digestive tract is what forces bile UP and into the stomach and I would believe anyone of them over the unreliable misinformation you have tried to inject onto those who have many years of positive experience compared to your complete lack of experience with the flushes.And yet you did not provide evidence to your claims once again. Could this be because the claims are bogus and will be challenged just like all the other bogus LF claims? I have yet to hear of any case of bile reflux as a result from gastroparesis and do you know how rare actual blockages are? Furthermore, if there is a blockage it would be a good idea to get to a hospital because blockages may require surgery. I have seen one person die from an intestinal blockage and another one that was vomiting up everything he ate, but not bile, since everything had backed up to his stomach. Hopefully he took my advice and went to the hospital.
You have become the fecal soap clown of Curezone.Again your failure to provide evidence to back your claims and instead resorting to attacks just further proves my point that the LF supporters have no real evidence to present and therefore have to rely on trying to drive anyone providing proof that "liver flushing" is bogus off the board.
- Re: Reply to the desperate FS man. Hveragerthi
13 y
9,204
- Re: Reply to the desperate FS man. #143595
13 y
9,041
- Re: Reply to FS man. dannielcruz
13 y
8,772
- Re: Reply to FS man. Hveragerthi
13 y
9,095
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... Hveragerthi
13 y
9,321
This is a reply to # 1,859,913
Dear Science and Logic genius...
The purpose of a Liver Flush is to clear the liver and gall bladder of stones and sludge. Maybe it escaped your capacity for logic but people don't do liver flushes when bile is being excreted normally. Or was that too difficult for you to understand? Please go to The Liver Flush forum and re-read the directions. When bile comes out normally it is time to stop.
Bringing this point up is akin the the directions written on a can of soda explaining how to open it. Some things in life don't need to be explicitly stated. That is, unless the person doing so just loves to be pompous, pedantic, a blowhard, and just generally loves the sound of their own voice or keyklicks in your case.
One episode of bile coming out isn't going to cause any harm. Repeatedly doing flushes with normally functioning liver and gall bladder is not advised. More strawman tactics.
Would you call a tow truck if your car wasn't stuck? Would you then repeatedly call the tow truck to drag your car around if it wasn't stuck? How many people are stupid or illogical enough to do such a thing? Maybe in your world everyone needs to consult you before taking a piss, but not in reality, and certainly not here in curezone where the name of the game is self treatment.
Plus, there is no danger since all of the bile will be bound up in FECAL SOAP!!! LOL. Oops, your bizarro logic backfired again strawman.Once again the "liver flush supporters" cannot respond with any real evidence so they respond with insults. Nothing new since as has been proven by evidence presented "liver flushing" is bogus. But some people, such as the "liver flush" supporters just don't care about facts. Belief in the impossible is enough for them!
Notice how they even go off on people when the response was not about the so-called "liver flushes". My point was that bile is caustic. And yes, it can burn the intestinal wall. But this is seen in cases where people have had their gallbladder removed so there is no control of bile release. Instead of being squirted in small amounts the bile instead dumps in the to intestine burning the wall. This leads to an excess secretion of water leading to diarrhea. So why would anyone want to attack me for answering the question with a well known medical fact? Oh that's right, the pompous, egotistical jerks who believe in the fairy tale called "liver flushing" don't think anyone should post here with real facts. They seem to think that the only people who should be able to post here are the fools who choose to believe in their ridiculous fantasies. So they take every chance they can to attack anyone who disagrees with their fantasies in an attempt to chase them away.
Thing is that this is a DEBATE FORUM. If they only want to hear from fools sharing their fantasies then there is a forum for "liver flush" supporters. There they can lie to each other all day long without the risk of being challenged with real evidence.
As far as this poster's ridiculous claim about all the bile being bound up as fecal soaps, the poster simply shows her total ignorance of human anatomy and physiology and science once again. Maybe if the poster bothered to do her homework first then she would realize that the process of saponification takes time and occurs further down in the intestine than where free bile would be released and could be refluxed if there is an issue with the pyloric valve.
So it is clear that the "liver flush" supporters are not here for debate. Like a pack of rabid dogs they are simply here to gang up on and attack anyone posting actual proof that their claims about "liver flushing" are pure fantasy.
At least this poster is finally admitting that fecal soaps are real. Better than the last "liver flush" supporter that claimed they did not exist all because they did not have enough brain cells to allow them to do the research to find out they were real. A common problem among "liver flush" supporters. Again, here is the evidence they are real:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1666924#i
Gee all that evidence of the existence of fecal soaps consistently denied by people who don't have a clue what they are talking about such as LisaMarie:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1677790
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1678237#i
"there is no such thing as a soap stone. there is no mention of it in medical literature. it is a fabrication made up by your leader hveragerthi. "-LisaMarie
Of course her claim about soap enemas for prep for a colonoscopy was also made up like most of her claims:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1677790#i
"when people go for colonoscopies the doctors usually tell them to do a soap enema before going in for the procedure"-LisaMarie
Of course that was just one more of her made up fantasy claims as proven here:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1679128#i
But of course this is not the only time her twisting of facts has been exposed. I addressed more of LisaMarie's twisting of facts in these posts:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1679907#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1849201#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1856929#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1848802#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1849190#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1745085#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1852912#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1754905#i
This is why the "liver flush" supporters are not taken serious by anyone other than other "liver flush" cultists. The "liver flush" cultists just make up whatever facts that will fit their needs while ignoring any and all real evidence that "liver flushing" is bogus. Then they routinely attack anyone questioning their made up claims. Even when they post the definitive proof themselves that what they have passed are really fecal soaps they still go in the attack to try and keep people from exposing this fact:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1848810#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1680987#i
Then there is still the fact that people who have actually sent in their so-called "stones" to a lab for analysis found out that these "stones" were in fact nothing more than saponified oil.
And there are the dye experiments where people put red dye in the olive oil before ingesting it. Specks of the red dye ended up inside the so-called "stones". Being that the dye never reaches the liver or gallbladder and the fact that real gallstones of any significant size are solid and not permeable to the dye the only way for the dye to get in to the center of these "stones" is if they were formed in the intestines from the "flush" ingredients. So why is it that the "liver flush" supporters continue to ignore the overwhelming evidence, even presented by themselves, that "liver flushing" is bogus?!!! And why do they continually attacking and lying about those who expose "liver flushing" as being bogus despite the overwhelming evidence? Why do they keep twisting what the people saying "liver flushing" is bogus say in order to make it sound like they said things they never said? Obviously they have no real evidence to back up what they are claiming about "liver flushing" so they rely on whatever low tactics they can think of to try and chase anyone away who exposes their fantasy "flushes" as bogus!
Oh well, the more they want to play their sick, childish games the more I will present evidence that "liver flushing" is bogus. This evidence will then go out to the search engines where other people on and off of Curezone will be able to read the evidence that "flushing" is bogus, and will be able to see that the supporters have nothing substantial to come back with so they resort to lies and attacks. Just think of all the intelligent people who will read the evidence and not get duped in to the potentially dangerous fairy tale known as "liver flushing"!
- Reply to FS man. #143595
13 y
9,122
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... Michael B
13 y
8,968
This is a reply to # 1,859,899
"A pH of 14 is 100,000 times more alkaline than a pH of 10."
Wrong. a pH of 14 is 10,000 times more alkaline than a pH of 10, not 100,000 times.
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... lisamarie23
13 y
9,293
- Re: pH of "liver bile" or "gallbladd... Hveragerthi
13 y
13,890
- Re: Bile in the Colon: Carcinogenic? Michael B
13 y
9,070
