Bile salts and cholestrol stones 
jessesmom1987
15 y
14,427
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I think I've figured out one of the things I've been negligent about taking regularly..I have no gallbladder, and the ND told me that I needed to plan on taking bile salts for the rest of my life, to make up for what the gallbladder normally does.
Now it makes sense why I need the bile salts..I didn't understand exactly what the purpose for them was until I read this this week. I've started taking what I had left, and am ordering more to take faithfully now.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bile
>>>Bile salts pass down the entire length of the small intestine, but instead of their being degraded or excreted in faeces, a remarkable phenomenon occurs. The bile salts are absorbed as whole molecules at the far end of the small intestine (the terminal ileum) and pass up the portal vein to the liver, whence they are re-secreted into bile. This circuit, known as the entero-hepatic circulation, represents extraordinary parsimony, for at any one time only 3-5 g of bile acids are present in the body; this 3-5 g is known as the bile acid pool, and it circulates 6-10 times a day. About 0.5 g of bile acids is lost in the faeces per day, which means that an average bile acid molecule survives in the entero-hepatic circulation for about 3 days, making 18-30 cycles. During this time, it will escort many hydrophobic molecules (such as cholesterol) into the small intestine, and help with the emulsification and absorption of a significant quantity of fat. We have no idea why the body should indulge in this metabolic penny-pinching. If the terminal ileum is diseased, or has to be surgically removed, the bile acids pass into the colon, where they produce watery diarrhoea.
Cholesterol gallstones
The commonest disorder of bile formation is the presence of gallstones, and the commonest type of gallstone consists of cholesterol, which comes out of solution in the gall bladder. Gallstones cause symptoms by passing out of the gall bladder and obstructing the bile duct; the time-honoured treatment consists of surgically removing the gall bladder. More recently, stones have been treated medically, by increasing the bile acid/cholesterol ratio of bile. This is achieved simply by taking synthetic bile acids by mouth. Unfortunately it may take many months to dissolve existing gallstones, and even if it does have the desired effect, the patient will need to take bile acids indefinitely to prevent the recurrence of stones.>>>
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- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones jessesmom1987
15 y
12,905
This is a reply to # 1,457,474I didn't realize how the bile salts worked, and haven't been consistent like I should have been in taking them. I remember Philisophical Cat also talking about taking them (with not having a gallbladder too.)
No Dr ever told me this after gallbladder surgery 3 years ago. But the ND told me first thing that with no gallbladder, the bile salts were going to need to be taken for the rest of my life. And Dr's say it's just an organ we'll never miss.
Allergy Research Group Ox-bile is what the ND has had me using.
I had been getting it through him, but now I see it's also available at iherb.
Another product I just found out about from Nashville Lady:
>>>Standard Process has a product called Cholacol.
Commentary: Cholacol contains purified bile salts. It is for bile stasis and gallbladder relief. Cholacol is for the bile deficient patient. It is bile salts which have been purified by exposure to activated charcoal. Don't confuse this product with refined extracts of bile salts, such as dehydrocholic acid. Cholacol is the whole bile substance. The herb, Collinsonia Root, has also been added to the product. Collinsonia supports the vascular system and lessens the likelihood of hemorrhoids and varicose veins, which can be aggravated if bile salts are given alone.
The only thing I might question about this product is the "exposure to activated charcoal" part. Otherwise I believe it is a very good product.>>>>
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- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones Paul DeGaul
15 y
12,269
This is a reply to # 1,457,487No doctor even told you about the need for the bile salts??
Wow, this is incredible. These are the same people that go on witch hunts for chiropractors and NDs.- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones jessesmom1987
15 y
12,409
This is a reply to # 1,457,531Nope, the ND told me, but that was a year after the gallbladder surgery, and after finding my liver enzymes still chronically elevated.
That's when I also found CZ and started killing parasites and getting big stones out of my liver that Dr's would have never found as a core cause either. I've found co-factors for why the liver has continued to be a problem, but the load of parasites I had was unimaginable..and the large stones.
I'm still getting stones, and have to flush often, but my liver was in really bad shape when I started here. My marker blood tests also showed that the C reactive protein was above the reference range, as was the fibrinogen. 9 months later, after doing nothing more than cleaning the colon, killing parasites, and regular liver flushing- the liver enzymes were (finally) within the normal range (for the first time in several years of being chronic), the triglycerides were in the normal range, and the C reactive protein and fibrinogen were way down from what they had been. So, it wasn't just my liver, my heart was also being affected from it being so blocked up. It was a constant, dull pain too. I couldn't ride in a vehicle without it really hurting. Felt like I had a football in there.
I didn't fully understand what the reason was for the bile salts, and how they worked with the gallbladder until I read this.
I would bet that no one else that has had their gallbladder out here, has been told about bile salts and the need for them after surgery either (by an MD). Most people that have the gallbladder surgery, also find like I did, that it doesn't resolve the problem...because the problem is in the liver.
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- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones Paul DeGaul
15 y
12,286
This is a reply to # 1,457,550Jesse, how do you determine dosage of bile salts for somebody without a gall bladder?
My mom had hers removed too, but this is new information and I"m sure she knows nothing about it. It might make a good birthday present. :-D- Re: Bile salts and no gallbladder E... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,990
This is a reply to # 1,457,961I'm finding other interesting stuff. It comes in different strengths, but I'm finding that most instructions are to take 1-2 just before meals, 3x a day. But, I'm also finding that it's saying for people who have their gallbladders, to vary the dosage. One place said to start out with 1 per meal, 3x a day..2nd day take 2 per meal..3rd day take 3 per meal--then drop back to 1 per meal etc.
If she isn't already taking the pancreatin (enzymes), reread about what their role is too.
>>The bile micelles pass into the duodenum, where the detergent action of the bile salts emulsifies fats, which are then broken down by the enzyme lipase from the pancreas. Bile salts also assist the final absorption of the products of fat digestion. Both bile and lipase are necessary for the proper absorption of fats by the small intestine. Without one or other of these two, there is deficiency of the vital fat-soluble vitamins, A, D, E and K, and malabsorption causes fat to appear in the faeces (steatorrhoea).>>
For an example- this product has both the ox-bile and the Pancreatin enzymes. The enzymes aren't by mg's, they are by units.
http://answers.shopping.com/xPF-Vital-Nutrients-Pancreatin-Ox-Bile-Extract-60...
This thread on the Lyme forum is an interesting one about proteolytic enzymes..but here is the reason for the enzymes being in units, not mg's.
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1412268
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james63.htm
>>>Most surgeons are blithely ignorant about the lost function of the gall bladder in patients who cholecystetomy. All patients lacking a gall bladder suffer from deficiency of bile acids. Patients lacking a gall bladder are unable to control bile secretion into the intestines to regulate proper absorption of fats, fatty acids, and fat soluble vitamins. Proper removal of toxins depends on bile acids that are not available in appropriate quantities after cholecystectomy. All persons who have had cholcystectomy need to take bile acids permanently. Without a gall bladder the patient has lost the ability to stock up on fat that can be used as a source of calories in illness and famine, essential fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins(A, D, E, K).>>
- Re: Bile salts and no gallbladder E... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,990
- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones Paul DeGaul
15 y
12,286
- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones jessesmom1987
15 y
12,409
- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones Paul DeGaul
15 y
12,269
- From my biochemistry manual - may he... Telman
15 y
12,507
This is a reply to # 1,457,474Advertisement
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
Cholesterol is the precursor for the synthesis of bile acids. Both dietary cholesterol and that made in the body are transported through the circulation in lipoprotein particles. The same is true of cholesteryl esters, the form in which cholesterol is stored in cells.
Slightly less than half of the cholesterol in the body is synthesised in the body. Biosynthesis in the liver accounts for approximately 10%, and suprisingly the intestines also make approximately 15%, of the amount produced each day.
Normal healthy adults synthesize cholesterol at a rate of approximately 1g/day and consume approximately 0.3g/day. A relatively constant level of cholesterol in the body (150 - 200 mg/dL) is maintained primarily by controlling the level synthesised in the body. The level of cholesterol synthesis is regulated in part by the dietary intake of cholesterol. Cholesterol from both diet and synthesis is utilized in the formation of membranes in the body and in the synthesis of the steroid hormones and bile acids. The greatest proportion of cholesterol is used in bile acid synthesis.
There are different types of cholesterol with different function such as HDL LDL etc. Cholesterol is transported in the plasma predominantly as cholesteryl esters associated with lipoproteins. Dietary cholesterol is transported from the small intestine to the liver within chylomicrons. Cholesterol synthesized by the liver, as well as any dietary cholesterol in the liver that exceeds hepatic needs, is transported in the serum within LDLs. The liver synthesizes VLDLs and these are converted to LDLs through the action of endothelial cell-associated lipoprotein lipase. Cholesterol found in plasma membranes can be extracted by HDLs and esterified by the HDL-associated enzyme LCAT. The cholesterol acquired from peripheral tissues by HDLs can then be transferred to VLDLs and LDLs via the action of cholesteryl ester transfer protein which is associated with HDLs. Reverse cholesterol transport allows peripheral cholesterol to be returned to the liver in LDLs. Ultimately, cholesterol is excreted in the bile as free cholesterol or as bile salts following conversion to bile acids in the liver.
The end products of cholesterol are the bile acids, synthesized in the liver. Synthesis of bile acids is one of the predominant mechanisms for the excretion of excess cholesterol. However, the excretion of cholesterol in the form of bile acids is insufficient to compensate for an excess dietary intake of cholesterol.
The most abundant bile acids in human bile are chenodeoxycholic acid (45%) and cholic acid (31%). These are referred to as the primary bile acids. Within the intestines the primary bile acids are acted upon by bacteria and converted to the secondary bile acids, identified as deoxycholate (from cholate) and lithocholate (from chenodeoxycholate). Both primary and secondary bile acids are reabsorbed by the intestines and delivered back to the liver via the portal circulation.
Bile acids were originally identified as being involved in four primary physiologically significant functions:
1. their synthesis and subsequent excretion in the feces represent the only significant mechanism for the elimination of excess cholesterol.
2. bile acids and phospholipids solubilize cholesterol in the bile, thereby preventing the precipitation of cholesterol in the gallbladder.
3. they facilitate the digestion of dietary triacylglycerols by acting as emulsifying agents that render fats accessible to pancreatic lipases.
4. they facilitate the intestinal absorption of fat-soluble vitamins.
Recent findings have demonstrated that bile acids are involved in the control of their own metabolism and transport via the enterohepatic circulation, regulate lipid metabolism, regulate glucose metabolism, control signaling events in liver regeneration, and the regulation of overall energy expenditure.
- Re: From my biochemistry manual - ma... Lori P
15 y
12,191
This is a reply to # 1,457,576Great to see you back Telman. Its been a year since I had my first attacks. I have been having them off and on for the last year. I finally went over my bloodwork I had been getting over the last year. (apparently all normal my docs (5 of them) told me over the year. Well my lipase and amylase were consistantly low. Liver enzymes were good. After tons of reading on pancretitas, gallbladder stones, alot of flushes. I decided that my pancreas, digestion needed help. I have been taking bile salts, digestive enzymes and pancreatin for the last month and half. I have not had 1 attack since taking these!!! I was diagnosed with a stone and what I assume alot of sludge in my gallbladder. Iam sure my liver was getting rid of alot of stuff too. I had been taking milk thistle off and on for a year prior to the attacks. The liver was probably detoxing alot of crap out of my system and I couldn't keep up I guess. Not sure. All I know is I do not have those stupid pains in my liver/gallbladder area anymore. My uppper left back pain has also subsided. I feel it once and awhile when I have missed a meal. I am taking digestive enzymes and bile salts with every meal now. I swear, we all have to take our own health in our own hands these days. I have most docs clueless, even the specialists,
Lori P- Re: From my biochemistry manual - ma... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,350
This is a reply to # 1,457,653Advertisement
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
That was another thing I had been taking regularly, with the bile salts, and have also gotten negligent about. I've also read that most of the time, people that have their gallbladders removed, within 10 years will also have blood Sugar problems because of the extra stress that is put on the pancreas.
Thanks for the information Telman. I am starting to understand this better. A couple of things that were in the article in the link I gave, also stood out:
>>Bile is a complex biochemical mixture, made continuously by the liver — 500-1000 ml/day passing down into the duodenum via the bile duct. There is a diversion in this journey: a small 50 ml sac — the gall bladder — fills with bile from the liver, and, by absorbing water across its walls, concentrates bile 5-6-fold.>>
So, no gallbladder means...bile isn't concentrated either.
And then this also:
>>The function of these remarkable molecules is inextricably involved with cholesterol. The two main bile acids, cholic acid and chenodeoxycholic acid, are both made from cholesterol in the liver and pass into the bile in combination with amino acids, as bile salts. Cholesterol is virtually insoluble in water, and in the words of the 1989 Nobel prizewinners, Brown and Goldstein, ‘Cholesterol is a Janus-faced molecule. The very property that makes it useful in the cell membrane, namely its insolubility in water, also makes it lethal.’ (The authors were referring to the crucial part played by cholesterol in the pathological process of atherosclerosis.) So the body has resorted to some remarkable strategies to excrete this difficult substance, and it seems that cholesterol excreted by the liver is partly extracted from the circulation and partly made by the liver itself. The body's main strategy is to use bile salts as detergents: the molecules have a water-soluble (hydrophilic) side and a fat-soluble (hydrophobic) side. This enables bile salts to make small parcels (‘micelles’) including several different molecules, with cholesterol as contents and bile salts as the wrapping. The hydrophobic aspect of the bile salt faces inwards, and the hydrophilic aspect faces outwards into the aqueous component of bile.
The bile micelles pass into the duodenum, where the detergent action of the bile salts emulsifies fats, which are then broken down by the enzyme lipase from the pancreas. Bile salts also assist the final absorption of the products of fat digestion. Both bile and lipase are necessary for the proper absorption of fats by the small intestine. Without one or other of these two, there is deficiency of the vital fat-soluble vitamins, A, D, E and K, and malabsorption causes fat to appear in the faeces (steatorrhoea).>>>
http://www.answers.com/topic/bile
- Some more info .......... Telman
15 y
12,807
This is a reply to # 1,457,719The liver doesn't produce the bile from scratch much of it is recycled from the entrohepatic cycle. However, there is tendency for recycled bile to clump more easily that freshly synthesised bile. It is important to ensure that a regular good proportion of bile is expelled so that new bile is synthesised.
It is now believed that more bile is lost that the 5% that older theory books report. Also, many more substances that we consume cause bile secreted through the biliary tract.
There are two distinct types of bile, hepatic bile and gallbladder bile the main difference being that hepatic bile contains bicarbonate and gallbladder bile is concentrated having water and bicarbonate removed. Both types in slightly different proportion are secreted by demand of different foods.
Many people survive perfectly well without a gallbladder and I have a friend whose diseased gallbladder was removed and his life has been unaffected. So it could be concluded that either he is lucky or in you circumstance and that of about 40% of people without a gallbladder that there is another factor.
The major problem with cholesterol is its inherently high melting point of 150 deg C. This is way above body temperature. When the essential fatty acids linoleic and linolenic are present in sufficient quantity with lecithin, cholesterol becomes liquid below normal body temperature.
'Normal' Bile is a critically stable (Metastable) material. It is a mixture of 3 compounds:
Cholesterol
Bile Salts
Lecithin
They need to exist together in certain proportion and any imbalance in any of the 3 substances can lead to anomalies in the bile. Too much cholesterol and crystals of cholesterol and clumps of fatty material form. A drop in lecithin and crystals of cholesterol, clumps of fatty material and cluster of plastic like material form. A drop in bile salts and clumps of fatty material and cluster of plastic like material form.
It can be seen that bile has the potential to make a wide variety of different types of 'stones' in the liver, ducts or gallbladder. It is also possibly that bile falling within normal concentrations may under certain condition form gall stones, Eg if the bile isn't replenished regularly or the gallbladder doesn't contract properly among other things.
Experiments in a laboratory have demonstrated that bile from people without Gallstones takes about 15 days to form the nucleus of a gallstone. Bile of people with cholesterol gallstones, which, usually already contains cholesterol crystals has a nucleation time of about 3 days. Nucleation of cholesterol occurs far more rapidly from gallbladder bile of people with cholesterol Gallstones than from hepatic bile in the same person, even when hepatic bile samples are supersaturated with cholesterol. The addition of even small amounts of gallbladder bile to the hepatic bile samples causes rapid nucleation. These observations have led to the isolation of proteins in the gallbladder that promote or retard the nucleation of cholesterol crystals. At least five proteins have been identified as nucleation promoters, in addition to gallbladder mucoprotein.
During the normal inter-digestive period the gallbladder partially contracts, thus potentially evacuating any small crystals that might have formed. This cleansing function of the gallbladder should in theory prevent bile stasis and prevent crystals from growing into stones. However, interruption in the normal biliary cycles can lead to the formation of cholesterol gallstones. This condition is sometimes called biliary stasis or gallbladder stasis. Stasis means the state in which the normal flow of a body stops.
Cholesterol re-absorption in the intestines can be blocked with an essential fatty acid "alpha-olefin maleic acid". This may be way of expelling excess bile, mainly cholesterol, and facilitating the biliary equivalent of an oil change but the evidence is not sufficiently robust at this point in time.
- Re: Some more info .......... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,388
This is a reply to # 1,457,785Advertisement
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
I was one that didn't have Gallstones in my gallbladder, and never did have the "classic" gallbladder attacks that people get. My gallbladder wasn't functioning, and I'm sure after I found all the parasites and large stones plugging up my liver after gallbladder surgery, that the reason the gallbladder was only found to be functioning at 5% capacity, was because of the bile problem coming from the liver.
I also don't know how long I had the gluten problem, and the small intestine damage that was found in the endoscopy (celiac), or how long I had been eating allergen foods that I've later found. It's like my 78 year old father found out in his adrenal saliva test..his allergy to gliadin (grains) is way worse than mine is, and he also found out he's allergic to eggs. It's been hard for him to try to make changes in his diet because "I've eaten this way for 78 years" :)
He also almost died of acute pancreatitis, and also has no gallbladder. They say it runs in families, and that the celiac (and food allergies ) runs in families- but maybe it's an imbalance to begin with and the liver doesn't have the proper balance of those things needed to work like it needs to work.
I'd still rather have the stones forming and have to do the Liver Flushes regularly, than have the chronic diarrhea people alot of people get...but, my goal is to find exactly what my liver needs to have that happy medium!
I hadn't been taking the choline regularly until the past couple weeks either...now I'm taking phosphatylcholine 3x a day, and am back on the bile salts, and am going to get back on the pancreatic enzymes needed too.
Thanks for your help Telman!
From reading your blog..
//www.curezone.org/blogs/f.asp?f=1196
it sounds like you stopped doing regular Liver Flushes after a year? Do you have stones still? You were able to save your gallbladder, thankfully.
- Re: Some more info .......... Telman
15 y
12,229
This is a reply to # 1,457,838Yes, I still have my gallbladder and no signs of stones since October 2008 when I expelled a calcified stone. (The last (I pray, and a straggler coming a year after the others.)
Celiac disease appears to linked to anomalies in liver function. The celiac reaction can take effect anywhere in the lower digestive tract from the duodenum to the colon. Because each section of the intestines specialises in the digestion of different foods then celiac can have a wide range of reactions. If it damages the ileum then the liver can be affected greatly.
- Re: Some more info .......... Telman
15 y
12,229
- Re: Some more info .......... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,388
- Some more info .......... Telman
15 y
12,807
- Re: From my biochemistry manual - ma... Telman
15 y
12,290
This is a reply to # 1,457,653Low serum lipase values almost always eliminated the possibility of pancreatitis and high values often, but not always, diagnostic for pancreatitis.
Your doctor should also have measured you triglyceride levels as part of the blood works.- blood test results jessesmom1987
15 y
12,587
This is a reply to # 1,458,158Advertisement
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”I was surprised by the effectiveness of it, and I wasn’t hungry.”
I know the post was for the other poster regarding their blood test results..
I have to also mention what happened with my "marker" blood test results, doing nothing more than colon cleansing, killing a bunch of parasites, and Liver Flushing regularly. I need to get another copy of the results to reread what the values were for everything when I first started with him, compared to where they were 9 months later..but there were significant changes.
I know my liver enzymes had been elevated prior to the gallbladder surgery (I'm sure the intern I first went to thought I was a closet alcoholic), but they also were still elevated a year after the gallbladder surgery, and my liver was hurting more and more all the time. Cholestrol and triglycerides were all elevated too.
But, the concern was that not only was my liver showing that damage was going on and my liver was not doing very well, but the other concern was these two values. Look at the dramatic change that took place when I did the marker blood test again in 9 months.
>>>C reactive protein way down- from being over the high end of 3.0 down to .58. Fibrinogen was a big improvement- from being over the high end past 423 down to the normal range of 274. (193-423 scale)
It was a lot cheaper paying for these more thorough blood tests by having the lab bill the ND, and me paying the ND for them..at that time it was $400. He said the same test was around $3,000 for people that did it through the lab and had insurance, or medicare like my father (who also had the marker tests done). NOW, the test through going through the ND, has gone up to $1400. So, I doubt that I will be having more done. But I was glad to have had these two marker tests to see these kind of results, and know the alternative methods were making the difference they were. Liver Flushing is part of his protocal too.
In the thousands of $ we spent on testing through MD's, they never would have found the core causes of my liver problems.
- Re: blood test results Esme
10 y
4,385
This is a reply to # 1,458,245Thank u for posting all this info ! I too have had my gallbladder removed :( , I now take bile salts and enzymes with every meal but still sometimes get gas and bloating . I will try a liver cleanse , will I have diarrhea from this cleanse ? What a informative site! So glad I found it :)
- Re: blood test results Esme
10 y
4,385
- blood test results jessesmom1987
15 y
12,587
- Re: From my biochemistry manual - ma... jessesmom1987
15 y
12,350
- Re: From my biochemistry manual - ma... Lori P
15 y
12,191
- Re: Bile salts and cholestrol stones jessesmom1987
15 y
12,905
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