I agree that fasting is a powerful tool, and I don't really know much about the healing aspect apart from what I have read, so I kinda let others comment on that, I am no expert. I think it's better that people relate their personal experiences. And don't forget, Fuhrman - who coined the term nutritarianism - wrote a book on water fasting and became a convert to it after visiting Shelton's clinic. Waterbug, who just commented to your other post, suggested it to you some time ago. However, these days, Fuhrman seems to think there is little point in fasting if you aren't going to eat properly, and prefers to see people eat properly first. I would agree, generally. And we have had the argument about "tough love" or "unconditional love" with regard to water fasting. Here it is years ago, and it keeps coming up now and then. But being pro nutritarian is not being anti-water fasting. Fuhrman agrees with both and so do I.
That being said, I am perhaps more pro-fasting for weight loss than Fuhrman is. I think a fast can reset your taste buds, so in some cases it can help with weight loss. I have an open mind about it. I made my thoughts clear about it here in the debate forum a while ago. However I have seen many failures, for example you brucester intended to do 40 days, but your last message said, you said "I have been the exact same for 25 days. Now i feel completely screwed", then you vanished for 3 months and your fasting website disappeared. Then you turn up today wanting to fast down to the skeleton state.
I have also seen some people succeed with water fasting, for example estugrrl is doing really well, as did willowley. They are usually people who have looked into fasting, and have a clear understanding of what's going on. I think it works for some and not for others, it can be a good jump start and confidence builder for the right people.
I did ask about creating a nutritarian forum here, however the webmaster didn't respond to it and I am pretty happy posting on the diet and nutrition support forum, and that is where some of us "nutritarians" and water fasters hang out during the eating phases.
I don't think Nutritarianism is bs for anyone. I think it's more important for water fasters. Why would anyone with any sense not want to eat what's good for them?
Anyway to summarize I disagree on the following points, reasons given are below:
On 1 I have explained that I don't think it's b/s, maybe you'd care to explain why you think it is (in fasting debate please, not here!). 2, I am entitled to my opinion and my status as a mod is irrelevant. I obey the forum rules, and there are other moderators to ensure I do (but see my reference to "tough love" above). Incidentally the only thing I have done to moderate in the last few months is hide a message advertising a tooth whetening product, and respond to good message alerts. I did block someone temporarily, but unblocked them, and now we are both sorted (and I wish him well if he reads this). I have as much power to hijack the forum as you do when you come back after a few months and start a thread, saying you don't like the advice given by me when you were away. Equal rights for moderators, is what I say! I am entitled to my opinion too, and I am not going to become a "go on, you can do it" bot. Been there, done that. On 3, fasting is a great tool if used properly, but I have not had cause to use it for anything other than weight loss, though one day maybe I will, perhaps for swine flu even (won't touch tamiflu with a barge pole). I intend to fast again, in the future. But I choose not to right now. 4 - Us nutritarians now post in Diet and Nutrition. Not sure about "derailing fasting threads with fear-mongering", you'd have to give an example.
Hi Brucester,
While i hear what you are saying, stoneface's post where he said that "fasting should be used only as a last resort" was that of only one person and i don't believe his comment is in any way representitive of this community.
Aside from that, i know there is a lot of knowledgable "nutritious eating" talk by people who feel that a person who is going to fast really should follow it up with a healthful lifestyle, lest the benefits of the fast quickly slip away... something i agree with in full.
In my opinion how we break the fast and what we do afterwards is an essential element in the fasting equation and very much belongs as a part of this forum. To eliminate this aspect would be to downgrade the information provided to potential fasters.
But i do agree with you and with Loosie that fasting is not to be thought of only as a last resort. There is good, better and best. "Good" is fasting, even if you go right back to eating the way you did before the fast. "Better" is Fasting and making some positive changes as a result. "Best" is Fasting and emerging from the experience with a whole new outlook on life including the desire to eat for optimal health and the practice thereof. I believe the people who advocate good nutrition are hoping to encourage people towards this option... towards the best possible emergence from the fast.
Also there is "Bad" and an example of this would be emerging from a fast eating more junk than ever before (or even just over-eating in general, now with a temporarily slowed metabolism by about 20%) and gaining 10 pounds of fat over the next 3 months. A lot of the nutritarian posts are partly intended to help prevent a person from falling into this kind of all too common trap.
While a fast can be an amazing tool to jump-start fat burning and an overall healthful lifestyle, indeed as it has been for me, it is true that a fast "in and of itself" is in no way the answer to losing weight and keeping it off... and that a person needs to explore the alternative of nutritious eating towards that goal as a more permanant solution.
Brucester,
Wow, when you first posted in the weight loss forum several months ago I really respected you for what you were trying to do. After reading your posts in this thread I have lost that respect for you. I don't know what your problem is but its evident to everyone reading this thread that you are the one with the problem not those responding to you.
If you don't want to read about nutrition then don't read the posts that speak of it, just skip over them. I happen to agree with everything thats been said in this thread with the exception of your posts. There is more to the fast than just drinking water only. What you do after the fast is just as important maybe more important than the fasting itself. If you break a fast incorrectly you could do irreversible damage to yourself even to death so in my eyes its a very important lesson to learn. If a fast is not broken correctly you will undo any health benefits you would have gained through fasting.
I also followed you to your other blogs to track your progress and saw that you were attacked most of the time for what you posted but you gave back as good as you got. Now seeing how you went on the attack unprovoked in this forum it leads me to believe I must have missed some of your posts in the other forums because it is apparent to me you are the cause of the upset. Nobody here attacked you, all we've done is to go on the defensive and try to explain why we post what we do.
"The nutrarian squad is out in force reviewing my history and picking out any section that may be "unhealthy" in their opinion with regard to fasting."
First of all we are not 'the nutararian squad' and we have just as much right to post our thoughts and advice here as you do. Second, those of us who have benefited from a fasting experience would be remiss if we didn't point out the healthy approach before, during, and after the fast.
"Dr Furhman is one guy, he is not the authorituy on fasting or healthy eating. If you prescribe to his methods, go the a furman forum.
Nobody said Dr. Fuhrman was the only authority on fasting or eating healthy. We have the right to discuss whomever we please.
"If i want to know about nutrarianism, raw vegan, meat eating, body for life, feed the muscle burn the fat, atkins diet, south beach diet, world health organisation recomendations or any other diet philosophy, i will do a google search. When i want to talk fasting, i will go to a fasting forum."
From following all you've posted all over the internet its apparent you wish to try everything under the sun in regards to eating and that is your right to do so if you wish. However, it is our right to speak our minds within the boundaries of common courtesy that are deemed as acceptable behavior in a public forum.
"I am entitled to experiment and find out for myself without swallowing your preaching as gospel."
Yes you are entitled to do whatever you want to do in this life. If you don't want responses then I would say you shouldn't post because when you post you never know who will respond and what they will say and sometimes its not going to be what you want to hear. When you post to a public forum of course you aren't going to take everything that is said as gospel. Its up to you to decide what to believe and include in your situation, there will always be disagreement but you don't have to be so nasty to get your point across is all I'm trying to say.
We are basically a community of like minded people here. There are those who post a couple of times and you never hear from them again but there are many who have been here for a long time whose sole purpose is to share their experience and knowledge of fasting with newcomers in the hopes the person fasting will gain the most health benefits from the fasting experience and that includes the diet before and after the fast.
BTW there is no need for you to tell me you don't care that I've lost respect for you because quite frankly I don't care what you think. When you are nasty and attack people you will get the same kind of response. We are here to support one another not to attack one another. I'd advise you to keep that in mind because you'll get much better advice without going into attack mode.
I wish you the best with whatever route you take even if its fasting to the skeletal state if thats what you want to do but to me thats just stupid. My opinion but I still wish you the best.