I am trying here to prevent anyone s... 
vektek
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"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg ‑ or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse."
C.S Lewis
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... saywhatagain
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This is a reply to # 2,242,239Hi vektek, I completely agree with this quote, and I do fully believe that Jesus Christ is God. My intention is not to start a debate with asking this, although it always seems to turn into one. My question is, did Jesus ever outright declare that He was God or did He let people figure that out for Himself? I know about the scripture that He declared 'before Abraham, was I am', to me this was Him saying plainly that He is God. Are there any scriptures that He says more clearly that He is the Christ or that He is the Only Begotten of the Father. From my memory, He mainly depended on others like John the Baptist and His apostles to figure out that He was God and teach it. He also taught indirectly many times that about the role of God the Son (and we know from other scriptures that He is God the Son), but did He ever out and out say He was God the Son or that He was the Christ from His own mouth?
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,242,271Saywhatagain, I think one of the best verses to proves Jesus is God is Isaiah 9:6:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
But of course, that is not Jesus saying that directly himself but I believe He inspired all of the scriptures, including that one.
Isaiah 10:33 says, The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
You would think, if Jesus was just a great moral teacher, he would have said, "oh no, you have misunderstood me, I am not making myself God" but he did not do that.
And like you said, in John 8:58, Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM" which was the personal name of Israel's God that was revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you).
Jesus maybe didn't say directly the words "I am God" but he said it in so many other ways. And the Jews understood what he was saying and that's why they wanted to kill him.
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,242,351"You would think, if Jesus was just a great moral teacher, he would have said, "oh no, you have misunderstood me, I am not making myself God" but he did not do that."
YOU would think that. i wouldnt. dont you read the scriptures? he didnt come for people who think they are already saved. he didnt come for the jews or the gentiles. he came for the lost tribes of israel. he came for 'whosoever will' was seeking him.
they call jesus the prince of peace but that wasnt his job. he said he did not come to bring peace but a sword. i told yo uwho that passage was about. you dont begin to understand the prophet. jesus didnt fulfill all the things in the prophets. there is always a next step. there is forever a work to be done.
its time and the fakers are coming to a head. we see who is wheat. we see who is tares. because they are fruiting.
youre such a jesus expert, is he the son of man or the son of god? its not a trick question.- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,242,370do you really know jesus? is he the son of man or the son of god?
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations;
1. Abraham
2. Isaac
3. Jacob
4. Judas
5. Phares
6. Esrom
7. Aram
8. Aminadab
9. Naasson
10. Salmon
11. Booz
12. Obed
13. Jesse
14. David
David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations
1. Solomon
2. Roboam
3. Abia
4. Asa
5. Josaphat
6. Joram
7. Ozias
8. Joatham
9. Achaz
10. Ezekias
11. Manasses
12. Amon
13. Josias
14. Jechonias
and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
1. Salathiel
2. Zorobabel
3. Abiud
4. Eliakim
5. Azor
6. Sadoc
7. Achim
8. Eliud
9. Eleazar
10. Matthan
11. Jacob
12. Joseph
13. Jesus
14. Christ
here is the entire passage:
Matthew 1 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 and Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4 and Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5 and Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6 and Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7 and Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8 and Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9 and Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10 and Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11 and Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: 12 and after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; 13 and Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 14 and Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 15 and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... refreshed
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This is a reply to # 2,242,377That shows Jesus' legal inheritance side of the family...through Joseph.
Mary was from the tribe of Judah. Both Joseph and Mary were related to King David.- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,244,107He is not actually Joseph's natural born son, but he claimed him (in this world) as his own. There is no 800lb gorilla. Jesus was fully man through Mary and fully God, through His heavenly Father.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,244,111does that mean obama is fully black and fully white at the same time?
seems to me the bible talks about a NEW creature.
your doctrines of men are shutting the door to heaven for you.- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... refreshed
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This is a reply to # 2,244,121Advertisement
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Are you kidding me? That doctrine you are putting your faith in is all about man....nothing about God.
How can you compare obama (a man) who has a human father and mother, to Jesus who had God as His Father?
So what are you saying? Jesus only had the Holy Spirit of God like we do when we believe? So that makes us either all human (even Jesus) with a gift of the Holy Spirit....or you are saying we are all gods.
Perhaps that all makes sense in your mind, but it does not for someone like me who knows and understands scripture to say that we worship God. Jesus was worshiped by His people. Worship is on a totally different level than just love. I may love you trapper...but I don't worship you.
This whole business of thinking loving thy neighbor is equal to worshiping God/Jesus is your biggest mistake. If you get that wrong, everything else follows incorrectly.
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... saywhatagain
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This is a reply to # 2,242,351To me there are countless scriptures that show that Jesus Christ is God, and it seems somehow right to me that He let other people testify of Him instead of just coming out and saying who He was.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,242,376I agree Saywhatagain!
This article brings out some good points too:
Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
Answer: The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Michael Houdmann- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,242,383if john the baptist was elijah reincarnated, then who was jesus? hint: he was around a long time before abraham.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... Denway
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This is a reply to # 2,242,383Jesus never makes the claim that he was God because he was not God.
There are many scriptures that show this. Look at John 17: 3-5 for example, it reads: “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
It is true that at John 10:30 Jesus says that he and the father our one but what did he mean? In verse 33 the Jews are going to stone him because they (the Jews) claim that Jesus is making himself God. But is he? If you keep reading until verse 36 Jesus says: “do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” So it was not Jesus who was claiming to be God, it was the Jews who claimed that Jesus was claiming to be God, Jesus plainly shows that he was claiming to be God's son, not God.
So, why did Jesus say that he and the father were one (vs 30)? This can be answered by going back to chapter 17 of John, it is good to read the whole chapter to get the point completely, but starting at vs 20 it reads: “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.”
You might want to look at John 20:17, where Jesus is talking to Mary and he plainly shows that he is not God: “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
Also, see Revelation chapter 3 where Jesus, now back in heaven, says to those who conquer: “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.Advertisement
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... saywhatagain
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This is a reply to # 2,242,518You can choose to believe that Jesus was not God if that is what you want to choose to believe, but then you have to reject the testimony of all those who wrote the scriptures that you are quoting. You are quoting the gospel of John to support your belief that Christ isn't God, but John himself testified that Christ is God on multiple occasions.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,242,547
Matthew 16:15-17Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... saywhatagain
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This is a reply to # 2,242,376
Matthew 11:25-27Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... refreshed
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This is a reply to # 2,242,376Do you have any favorite ones that you would like to share?
I think mine may be John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... trapper/kcmo
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This is a reply to # 2,242,3911 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. - Expand 20 messages, 21 to 40 of 40 saywhatagain
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- Re: I am trying here to prevent anyo... vektek
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