Have any words of God ever been spoken throughout all history that are not specifically contained in the bible? If so, are these words also God's word?
John 21:25 (NKJV) And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
All of these other things that Jesus did, all of the other words that Jesus spoke, are they not also a part of God's word even though they are not contained in the bible? Can all the words and deeds of an infinite God be contained within a single and finite book? Not according to the author of this Gospel, John the beloved apostle of the Lord Jesus.
Have there ever been children of God throughout history who are never mentioned in the bible who have done His will and walked in His blessing? Is every sign and wonder God has ever performed contained within the pages of the Bible?
Has God ever placed a calling on people's lives, people who are not mentioned in the bible? If so, how can the bible lead such people into His specific calling in their lives, into a specific area of ministry if they are not mentioned by name and if the specifics for each person by name are not clearly spelled out in the bible? Maybe He calls someone to lead a home worship and bible study group, another to meet the homeless in the streets and pray for them, another to go to New York City or Belize and share the gospel and His signs and wonders. If we reject the leading of the Holy Spirit of the living God and choose instead to be led by the Bible, how could we possibly know we are being led into these things?
Are we to be led moment by moment by the living infinite God (a living person), the very God which lives within us and speaks into our hearts, who has spoken His word throughout all eternity and continues to speak today or are we to be led moment by moment by the bible (a non-person)?
John 1 (NKJV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Let's try interpreting these verses as some do and see how well this fits.
1 In the beginning was the King James Bible, and the King James Bible was with God, and the King James Bible was God (wow, bold claim!). 2 He (apparently the King James Bible is a "He") was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through the King James Bible (yes everybody, the King James bible is our creator too!), and without the King James Bible nothing was made that was made. 4 In the King James Bible was life, and the life was the light of men.
... 14 And the King James Bible became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld the King James Bible's glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
According to some, the King James Bible is the Son of God, the King James Bible died for our sins and rose from the grave! Myself, i believe the Word of God as spoken of in these specific scriptures is the Lord Jesus.
Has the bible for some perhaps become an altar of religion and an idol? Please consider this very carefully and indeed prayerfully because idolotry (in this case bible idolotry) can be a very sneaky and subtle evil and none of us want to be party to it.
Revelation 19: 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God (does this refer to the King James Bible?). 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him (the King James Bible) on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself (the King James Bible) will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He (the King James Bible) has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
You can choose to be followers of the Bible as if it were your Lord, but i will continue to be a follower of my Lord Jesus, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. His robe will be dipped in blood and i will follow Him clothed in fine linen, white and clean. The bible has been a wonderful tool and it has helped bring me to this place of deep personal surrendered relationship with my Lord Jesus (and continues to help me to fall deeper and deeper in love with Him), but the bible is not my Lord, Jesus is.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
God bless everybody.
(Message edited by Moderator)
Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Lu 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Pr 26:4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Can it be assumed from your response that you believe Bible idolotry to be a good thing? Instead of making yet another personal attack shrouded in yet another parade of bible verses which have been hatefully applied and have nothing to do with me or anything i wrote, perhaps you can find the courage to specify which of my words you have issue with and counter with your own beliefs. If you are unable to do this, then your continuous vicious personal attacks are null and void.
(Edited by Moderator)
Heb 12:1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
Eph 4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 ¶ But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Eph 5:1 ¶ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
ok no scriptures
your argument and presentation are what is known as a strawman argument. You set it up with your own devices and you knock it down with your own devices all along claiming it is someone else.
this sort of thing is found in Stoic and Sophist philosophy but not in Christianity.
In short you started this thread only to polarize people not encourage or edeify.
such worldliness is not to be apart of a Christians life any longer and needs to be fought against in the spirit with the word of God.
This is your personal battle you need to fight on your own.
I would quote from your post about not getting into arguments and how we all have different opinions and we should have respect for each other and so on.
But that post was completely removed from the thread so we can't ask you why your not living by the very words you were suggesting that we all live by.
since then you have posted 2 posts concerning the KJV. I do not nor do I argue about KJV only or anti-KJV only arguments of which you want to do. If so move tot he Christianity Debate forum that is where you can argue about KJV idolatry and any other bible Idolatry to your hearts content.
My faith is in Jesus Christ, I am led and guided by the Holy Ghost via prayer and the Holy Bible to live a holy and righteous life in Christ.
My faith that the AV is the ONLY complete, accurate and preserved word of God is mine by faith. I will not force you or anyone else to agree but I will demonstrate it in teaching correctly and rightly.
I will not argue about it. Any man who claims to be a christian and basis debates on straw man arguments is worldly and fleshly and needs to be avoided.
#60704: "I would quote from your post about not getting into arguments and how we all have different opinions and we should have respect for each other and so on. But that post was completely removed from the thread ......"
I have gone back to check and no such post was ever removed. Very few posts were removed and they did not involve either one of you, therefore your statement is simply not true.
I only see two things going on here; one person battling an idea held by someone else on this board, and another person using Scripture to battle the other directly. Amazing stealth warfare. Not liking it one bit.
...That you are attempting to remove the splinter in your brother's eye and ignoring the board in your own.
The forum rules and procedures have been explained sufficiently in previous posts. I have chastized Ed on a number of occasions for violating some of those rules. That being said, there is nothing objectionable in his original post earlier today that requires any further correction. He made a post that is objectionable to YOU and perhaps a number of others, an idea you passionately do not share. That in and of itself is not a forum violation. There definitely are many posts that do not make the grade on this forum, primarily, those that propose using different religious texts or practices that do not conform with the Bible. Ed's posts at times may seem to fall on a thin line, yet, because he repeatedly asserts his complete devotion to Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord and does not claim to follow any other text than the Bible, then his posts are welcome here.
This would have been an excellent opportunity for you to present your views of why the KJV is the only version that is acceptable and that pleases God. You could have presented the history of the AV and the reasons for proclaiming its exclusivity as opposed to other translations or versions of the Bible. You could have otherwise given him examples of why you think his approach is flawed from a Biblical perspective. Others might have wanted to chime in and agree or disagree with you, perhaps even citing other historical, linguistic, cultural, and Scriptural evidences to further uphold their stances. Potentially, this could be a very interesting, stimulating, thought provoking discussion from which we could all learn, (except for those who already know everything, of course).
Instead, you chose to use the Bible not as a tool for clarity and correction of presumed error, but as a weapon of mass destruction by underlining phrases that resulted in insults and defamation of character. On a personal note, frankly I find this apalling.
I can only imagine those ancient scholars of Greek and Hebrew who took years before they took texts to print, sitting around on a round table with baskets of bananas and tomatoes to sling at each other during their lengthy discussions. No, I'm sure it didn't happen that way then, and it sure isn't going to happen here either. Got it?
I realize you MOD5A5, do not have my intonation, and body language and eye contact to judge correctly my attitude so please take this from someone who is being as gentle as he can to present this to you and anyone reading this. I am not in any way being argumentative and I am not trying to debate you or anyone I am just making an observation.
I am not a KJV Only advocate.
And if I am to debate over this issue of my personal belief that the AV is the preserved word of God then this thread is in the wrong forum.
I do not know of any Christians that worship a Bible/book as the claim in the Original Post(OP) teaches. Also, I do not know of any cults or groups who do worship a bible or book historically or at present.
And if Christian is to make a claim that people are worshiping a book, then they need to show physical proof through links to sites, quotes from writers and teachers who advocate and teach where people are actually bowing down and doing so. And also to use a Bible version that truthfully speak of what is being illustrated not substitution of words in a text as if someone actually ever said or did such a thing.
Then, the accusation that some do worship a book, needs to supported by and with scriptures, that clearly in the context show people worshiping the word of God, as a book in the past. Once he has established the accusation as a truth. Then with scriptures he needs to admonish and correct. Not bash at a straw man and an invisible foe so called an idolator.
The OP is a plain and clear a straw man argument in which one builds up a point based on ones own personal feelings and thoughts outside of scriptures, then OP uses scriptures inaccurately by changing words of a bible text, and then adds a great swelling amount of words to further decorate and dress up the straw man. While failing to use scriptures correctly and in context to the truth in the word of God the OP has established a private interpretation. So that that one who holds this private interpretation of a strongman argument then can undress it and bash it at will with impunity. But never teaching anything clearly from the word of God that would fit into a titled forum "Christianity Biblical" that would teach, edify Rom 12, Eph 4, correct and instruct 2TIm 3:16.
To present an argument as the OP has misleads others into thinking there are people who actually have book they accredit to have created all things and is God. This is a falsehood and injurious to Baby Christians of which the writer of the OP is one, and to non-believers who may be seeking.
And so, seeing this is nothing more than a straw man argument then it should be in "Christianity Debate" forum and not here for the following reasons. I am in no way telling you how to run the forum but this is very clear from your own words that you see this as a debate, seeing you stated, "This would have been an excellent opportunity for you to present your views"). Therefore showing that you understand this is about presenting views which is Debating, to debate is to present opposing views there is another place to post this thread.
I have made no straw man arguments in anything I taught so far in the "Christianity Biblical" thread. So far everything I have shared is backed with clear scriptures in its clear and correct biblical context.
I never called anyone in this forum or any other forum here at curezone or any other website forum a "cockroach", an "Bible Idolator", a "dead religionist", "Bible worshiper" or any other name or innuendo.
Was the OP's point to lead people away from a form Idolatry? Then he failed to prove it exists in the world today or in the Bible? Therefor it is a straw man that does not really exist.
If you like I can do a general study on Idolatry and show you that every heart form of Idolatry has an outward expression of it in the form of an Idol. As far as scriptures go Paul is the only one who points to covetousness as equal to idolatry, but there again if you study out is to has a idol outwardly attached to it.
This is a falsehood and injurious to Baby Christians of which the OP is one.
Another personal attack, but it's ok because this just made me smile. I'm sure the Living God whom i serve with all that i am and everything within me thought this was pretty funny too, so God bless you.
I have made no strawman arguments in anything I taught so far in the "Christianity Biblical" thread... I never called anyone in this forum or any other forum here at curezone or anyother website a "cockroach",
Since i had not used the word cockroach, are you now presenting your own strawman argument, in the hopes of distracting the nice people from the truth and falsely painting me as somebody who called you this?
Regarding bible idolotry, I have made this point many times and it seems you are struggling quite a bit with its absorption. According to the bible we are to be led by the Holy Spirit (a person), not by the bible (a non-person). Therefore, if we reject the leading of the Holy Spirit and instead choose to be led by the Bible, this is a form of idolotry. It is a very simple concept.
If you truly are being led by the Holy Spirit and not by the bible, then God bless you. If you are not, then may God bless you as well by leading you unto His righteous path which can only be followed when we die daily to flesh in His strength and allow the Holy Spirit of the Living God to lead us. Only God knows your heart.
If you feel anything in this entire post is untrue, if you feel that any of the widely established and deeply rooted biblical principles i espouse are false, then please quote my own actual words back to me specifically and state why you believe my own words are false. Please try to keep in mind that your own personal interpretation of scripture or that of your seminary is not the final word and scriptural interpretations and doctrines are open to debate among those who follow the Lord.
I never called anyone in this forum... an "Bible Idolator", a "dead religionist", "Bible worshipper" or any other name or innuendo.
No chette, but since you have brought this up... if you are to search deep and be completely honest with yourself, what you have done was leveled numerous, relentless personal attacks against me including a legion of falsely applied bible verses dating back 2 or 3 weeks and as recently as yesterday. As far as i can tell, this is due primarily to your minority held theological opinions which i don't share. Among other priceless gems, you accused me of being evil and of being a heretic.
You insinuated that i am an adulterer, fornicator, given to lewdness and drunkenness and and about 50 other vicious accusations, many of which have been erased by the mod, all of which are completely false and all of which reveal that you have no idea what my relationship with the Lord is really like, the kind of worshipful, surrendered, die daily to flesh life i live unto the Living God, seeking Him moment by moment in love and in holiness as led by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth.
You have continually judged falsely and you have consistently used the bible as a club to beat me with, shamefully and with no remorse misapplying these scriptures because you know not my heart, my heart which desires only to serve the Lord Jesus and His people with everything within me and to live pleasing unto Him. If you are to be completely honest with yourself, chette, this is what you have done. May the scales fall from your eyes that you would receive sight and may the Lord in His kindness fill you with many holy blessings. This is a real prayer that i present humbly to the living God with my whole heart and in the love the Lord Jesus has given me for you.
In all my years here I have never come across anything so outrageous and ridiculous. I'm about to make use of my little ban button.
Lord help me!
I really, really want to allow you and everyone else the freedom to express themselves and to offer their experiences and points of view. Chette, you apparently have not read the Forum description nor the many posts I have made recently regarding debates, discussions, disagreements, etc. You keep telling me when I should move posts to the Debate Forum, although I have repeatedly stated my reasons for not doing that. No one else seems to mind that except you.
The truth is that you both started out by not just presenting your views, but insulting each other constantly along the way. However, Ed has stopped this behavior and is now only defending himself from your continued attacks. The worst part is, that you throw the stones and then duck and point a finger and say; -"it's him, he started it, I didn't do anything!".
I'm getting very tired of this as am sure is everyone else, as there has been ample opportunity to mend this situation. You've been warned.
Gentle? ...."...Oh generation of vipers...." If that's your gentle I would hate to be on the receiving end of your wrath.
At this point you have no choice but to concede.
Very well said, my paper-bag-headed friend. There is an enormous amount of wisdom in your statement. Sad isn't it?
The Holy Spirit in you is all over this Rainy. You have addressed an extremely delicate issue with amazing love towards Trust.
Trust if you are willing, i would encourage you to immerse yourself prayerfully and worshipfully in the Gospel of John and learn directly from the Lord Jesus through His own words and deeds. There is much new aginess in your mind, none of which the risen Lamb of God teaches or embraces. Please let the Lord Jesus Himself be your teacher. Please do a complete re-boot. Burn up all of the non-Jesus teachings as if by holy fire and start fresh... Pray daily that God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) will bless you with an amazingly deeper love for Him. Run full speed towards a brand new life in Christ, dead to your old self and your old ways, born again of His Spirit.
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
Surrender your life fully to the Lord Jesus and watch in amazement what He will do.
In short you started this thread only to polarize people not encourage or edeify.
Not so chette and sadly you are infinitely far from knowing my heart. But the living God does and i know that He is deeply pleased with the love i have for Him and the way in which i have worshipfully surrendered my whole life to Him, to walking in holiness unto Him, and as such, He has me in the shadow of His wings, walking in His immense blessing and favor, pouring His holy signs and wonders through my surrendered life on an almost daily basis.
The Lord has been showing me how rampant bible idolotry is in the church, great numbers of people believing that they can replace the leading of the spirit (being led by the Spirit is what the bible teaches us as believers to do) with the leading of the bible (which the bible does not teach). Among the 3 churches i visited on Sunday, one pastor actually led the congregation in an oath to their bibles. I abstained of course, but the Lord showed me something there. This post is not intended only to help you personally to see things in a different light, but many others as well. I do love you, but i am really not giving you that much personal attention.
Like the israelites in the time of Moses who did not want to hear God's voice because it was too scary... and wanted God to speak only to Moses, it seems that vast numbers of people today have fallen into the same mistake. "Please just give us the rules and we'll follow them (not really!), but we don't want to hear your scary voice or surely we will die". Myself, i want to seek the living God's face and to hear His voice as Moses did. I want to walk in His holy presence, basking in His love and i hope to encourage others towards the same. This post is not a personal attack against you chette, nor anybody, try to understand this and it was not out of any desire to polarize people ... merely to warn anybody with ears to hear that bible idolotry is not what the Lord wants us involved in and to encourage everybody towards an amazing loving relationship with the Living God, just as the bible encourages us to do consistently throughout.
I am simply in this forum sharing what the bible teaches (Jesus is Lord, worship the living God, not the bible) and i used scripture verses to back it up. If you wish to debate the points i have made in a civil manner, by all means please do so with my full blessing. But when you judge falsely, misdirecting scripture verses which the LORD never intended to be applied to me in this situation, the friendly discussion takes a very unpleasant turn and gets reduced to nothing but vicious and false personal attacks.
Substituting "Word of God" with "King James Bible" was done to make an important and hopefully stronghold-breaking illustration to God's people who really do believe that's what "Word of God" means in this context. Jesus is the Word of God, with a capital W. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords with a robe dipped in blood... and the Bible as an important and wonderfully recorded portion of God's words throughout all history is not itself our God, but merely a great tool to help us draw unto our Lord and our King, Jesus the Christ. To those who already know this, then these words are not for you except perhaps as a reminder.
My faith that the AV is the ONLY complete, accurate and preserved word of God is mine by faith. I will not force you or anyone else to agree but I will demonstrate it in teaching correctly and rightly.
I do not contest your right to share what you believe and hopefully you don't contest my right to voice my beliefs, which are based in what the bible very clearly says through well established principles. Worship the Lord your God and Him only is a pretty big deal as far as i can discern. I end with one of my favorite bible verses among many:
God bless everybody.