Thanks, Hv! You're making me want to return all the Vitex that I bought. :-) I wish I knew this before I bought them.

My logic for wanting to try Vitex was based on my reading about John Lee, M.D., who advised increasing progesterone levels to balance estrogen when it is dominant.

There are a number of things I disagree with Dr Lee.  For example, I don't like the fact that he pushed progesterone creams without mentioning the side effects/risks of the progesterone or the fact that it builds up in the tissues.

Based on his advice, I thought progesterone was supposed to stop estrogen dominance and that it doesn't matter how much estrogen you have as long as the levels of estrogen and progesterone are balanced.

To an extent. Progesterone will antagonize estrogen, but it is also a precursor for estrogen.  If enough of the built up progesterone converts to estrogen then you would still be back to the same initial problem of more estrogen than progesterone to control it.

Here are some selected Q & A's from the site http://www.power-surge.com/transcripts/johnlee.htm
:

[quote]
Welcome to Power Surge, Dr. Lee. Let me begin by asking about the perpetuation of the myth that all women's problems are due to a lack of estrogen and not enough
focus is placed on the importance of progesterone. Did you originate the theory of "estrogen dominance," and can you explain exactly what estrogen dominance is?

Dr. John R. Lee: Greetings. It's a pleasure to be here. The important principle that we must all observe is the principle of balance. In particular, the balance between
estrogen and progesterone implies that it is not the absolute amount of either hormone present, it is the balance between the two. Mother Nature's plan is that
estrogen was never produced totally in the absence of progesterone. When estrogen is unopposed by progesterone, it has dangerous side effects.

And again, what about the side effects of progesterone and progesterone dominance?

When estrogen is dominant in the balance, those side effects will occur. Therefore progesterone supplementation is needed to restore balance.

This is where I really disagree.  Supplementing is way different than allowing the body to generate its own.  Progesterone creams allow progesterone to build up in the fat tissue leading to progesterone dominance and its side effects.  Just like any other hormone replacement therapy levels cannot be controlled and thus the risk of side effects is much greater.  If there is an imbalance then there are natural and safer ways to correct the imbalance rather than risking imbalance from synthetic pharmaceutical progesterone supplementation.

LSA82383: Dr. John, this is Lisa Peterson from MN. So glad to have you in this chat! I know from what I have learned from you that I would not hesitate to use natural
progesterone

The progesterone is not natural.  It is synthesized in a lab.  The fact that they keep blatantly lying about this fact calls the rest of their claims in to question.

with any hormonal cancers. Are there any mainstream studies going on right now that would indicate to any oncologists the safety and effectiveness of treating with natural progesterone?

The problem is that the studies are based on whether or not progesterone will stimulate cancer growth directly.  Not is progesterone will cause cancer by activating the HPV virus associated with breast and other cancer formations, or stimulated growth from the estrogen that progesterone is the precursor for.  It is like claiming that testosterone will cure breast cancer since it is a estrogen antagonist even though it is also an estrogen precursor converted in to estrogen by the enzyme aromatase.

Dr. John R. Lee: Hi Lisa! Good to hear from you! My sister from MN is visiting to escape the cold. Yes, I would refer you to Bent Formby. He has a paper published in the journal -- hold on I'm looking for the specific reference to give you -- and he's coming out with two more papers in the near future. Annals of Clinical and Laboratory Science, 1998, Vol. 28, page 360, June. "Progesterone inhibits growth
and induces apoptosis in breast cancer cells: Inverse effects on Bcl2 and P53." That's the title of the article.

TSWAHL: Is the use of progesterone cream safe after breast cancer and is it effective if the tumor was PR-neg?

Dr. John R. Lee: The test for progesterone receptor presence or absence is not a very accurate test. Progesterone receptors are stimulated to be made by estrogen itself. It is highly unlikely that any tumor driven by estrogen would have no cells that lack progesterone receptors. If there in truth were no progesterone receptors then it could do no harm because the cell could be unaware that any progesterone is present. Chances are the receptors are there, and therefore the cell will respond to the message of progesterone which is a prevention against breast cancer.

If a phone line came by your house, but you didn't have a phone, you would be unaware of it -- that's how it is with progesterone. The message of progesterone to breast cells is to stop them from becoming breast cancer cells. So therefore, there is no reason ever to not give progesterone to try to help someone prevent or stop breast cancer.

I can think of several reasons that have already been brought up.

In 3,000 breast cancer biopsies Dr. Zava found only one in which there were truly no progesterone receptors. It's a rare congenital defect.

BOZA3: Many symptoms pointing to estrogen dominence, should I discontinue the estrogen and use natural progesterone cream? Had total hysterectomy 14 months ago, boderline low malignancy ovarian cancer.

Ovarian cancer is another HPV associated cancer, and progesterone activates the HPV virus.

Dr. John R. Lee: You're best off gradually reducing the estrogen so that you don't get hot flashes. But then you can try just progesterone and see how you do. Most women do fine with just progesterone. We don't have the specific
research in yet, but all indications are that progesterone is protective against cancer in general. If I had cancer of any kind I would use it, and would avoid the estrogen. You can get an AMAS test to make sure the malignancy hasn't recurred.
[/quote]

In addition, here's an article by John Lee, M.D.:

http://www.rethinkingcancer.org/resources/magazine-articles/13_5-6/natural-pr...


What do you think of this?

Again, there is a lot that Lee left out about the dangers that include various cancers.

Is the use of Vitex to increase progesterone levels and balance estrogen too risky and not advisable, or are you merely saying that there are better alternatives than Vitex but Vitex can still be useful as long as the patient truly has estrogen dominance?

Vitex in low enough doses would not significantly increase progesterone.  But people tend to think if a little is good more must be better.  Over all phytoestrogens are going to be safer for estrogen antagonism.

Here is an article that you will may find interesting on the subject:

http://erc.endocrinology-journals.org/content/13/3/717.long