Hv,
Are you familiar with the works of some scientists who attest that HCV and HIV do NOT exist?
For the hep C, first read these 3 small articles by Nicholas Regush:
http://www.healtoronto.com/reghepc1.htm
http://www.healtoronto.com/reghepc2.html
www.healtoronto.com/reghepc3.html
Then this by Dr. Stefan Lanka:
An answer by r.Stefan Lanka (the virologist that affirms that HIV never was) to a question about Hepatitis C (published on Continuum magazine vol.4 no.1).
<< Hepatitis-C virus was never a reality or even an artefact, only an invention. After the riddle around Hepatitis-B virus (HBV) - still "not vailable for experiments" - was set so the general public had the impression the Hep-B antibody test really detects antibodies formed in reaction to infection with HBV (and the vaccination programme against it wa sestablished), innovative scientists filled the gap in explaining hepatitis without antibodies against hepatitis-A virus (HAV) and HBV as "a viral non-A non-B Hepatitis". As in the case of the illnesses grouped under the artificial diagnosis "AIDS", it didn't occur to them to mention other well known reasons for Hepatitis, e.g. alcool and bad diets. It was then just a matter of years until some US scientists with corporate backing came up with an antibody test, using only synthetic proteins produced on the basis of some genetic sequences which were defined, in an ad hoc act, as being part of the genetic sequence of "Hepatitis-C virus" (HCV). These tests simply use some synthetic, non viral proteins, that were never even said to be taken from a virus! So, like all such tests, the HCV test can have no diagnostic value whatsoever. Everybody who claims otherwise is acting irresponsably, and in the case of medical doctors, have no real ethical values: the result of a positive HCV test frightens people, who are then in danger of treatment with problematic medications in high concentrations (interferons) and their bodies may be damaged by psychosomatic reactions. Just ignore the result, and avoid contact with any medical staff who believe in HCV and if possible start legal action against them. This may be healing not only for you but for others too. So, look out for a young responsible scientist to help you. The older ones have failed badly by challenging nothing>>
For HIV and also HCV:
"The main proponents of this view are Australian researcher Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos and her colleagues, who argue that HIV has never been isolated according to the Pasteur Institute criteria of 1973, and therefore it's probably what's called an "endogenous retrovirus" -- a creation of the body's own genetic material that looks and functions partly like a virus, but is not an infection because it comes from the body's own cells.
Stefan Lanka, Ph.D. takes the challenge to HIV's existence even further. A German researcher, Dr. Lanka is usually referred to as a virologist. But that hardly begins to describe his wide-ranging fields of study. Based on experiences in marine biology, biochemistry, evolutionary biology and virology, he's worked out a whole new view of HIV and AIDS. He believes that all so-called retroviruses are actually the body's own creations; that hepatitis is an autoimmune disorder (a disease in which the body is attacked by components of its own immune system) rather than a viral disease; that AIDS has nothing to do with immune suppression; and that it should really be called Acquired Energy Deficiency Syndrome -- AEDS -- because its true cause is a breakdown in the delivery of oxygen to the blood and/or body tissues. Dr. Lanka did a West Coast tour in October and spoke to H.E.A.L.- San Diego on October 20. Zenger's interviewed him hours before that event. Here is the link to the interview (Stefan Lanka is really a great scientist, please read the interview Hv, I think you will enjoy it - many different findings)
www.oikos.org/aids/intlanka.htm
also:
controinfoaids.org/Update%2004-06/Interview%20to%20Stefan%20Lanka.htm
Of course, there are many other references to their claims. The Perth Group ( formed in 1981 in Perth, Western Australia. The three original members are the leader, biophysicist Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, emergency physician Valendar F Turner and Professor of Pathology John Papadimitriou. Over the years several other scientists have contributed to or joined the Group. These are physicists Bruce Hedland-Thomas, David Causer and Barry Page, Florida USA biochemist Todd Miller and Colombian physician/medical researcher Helman Alfonso) put up this reference rich site (for mainly HIV):
What are your views on this Hv? Actually it is true that there is no published, peer-reviewed scientific evidence that such a virus actually exists— namely that it has been properly isolated, according to accepted, fundamental principles of virology. As for the HIV there is a scientific paper by Dr. Peter Duesberg trying to prove the Perth Group wrong here:
www.duesberg.com/papers/continu1.html
But it left room for a rebuttal from Dr. Lanka:
www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/slanka.htm
and so it goes on and on.....
It is a disease and and too many died from it (whatever the name you want to call it).
No doubt Armond. But to have it´s TRUE cause determined is a sure way to later finding a TRUE cure, right?
If you are really interested please read:
www.virusmyth.com/aids/data2/ahrecom.htm
And yes, alcohol, cigarettes, air pollution, water pollution, heavy metal intoxications, malnutrition, junk food, the indiscriminate use of chemical drugs like antibiotics, etc....in other words TOXICITY and DEFICIENCIES, make it much easier for you to get the disease, yes! And then specially through transfusions. Here is a small extract of Dr. Lanka´s interview where he talks about it:
I also met Professor Alfred Hässig of Switzerland. He founded Swiss blood-donation system and was one of the first to take out products from the blood in order to make plasma to treat chronic disease. By becoming a colleague and a very close friend of his by now, I learned a great deal about the whole blood-producing industry and the criminal energy behind it. In March of 1996 in Berne [capital of Switzerland], Hässig, Kremer and I met for the first time.
It became clear, also, what's happening in the field of hepatitis. They are not dealing with a virus. Of course, there's a possibility to enrich certain kinds of proteins in blood products, which then cause severe autoimmune reactions, but only in very stressed-out people, never in non-stressed people. When they learned to take out these proteins from the blood products, or dilute them, there are not hepatic problems anymore. I learned this through him.
Zenger's: Are you saying that all forms of hepatitis are non- infectious, or just some of them?
Dr. Lanka: No, there's no such thing as infectious hepatitis.
Zenger's: So there are no hepatitis viruses, either.
Dr. Lanka: Yes. Hässig was always fighting to make sure that blood products were produced only on the basis of a small pool of donors who were young and healthy. The industry started to produce blood products on the basis of commercial blood donations, using a huge amount of blood samples, pooling them all together in a large pool, because then it was much cheaper to get out all the various kinds of products.
Zenger's: In this country, it gets even worse because blood donations are one of the principal ways homeless people have of staying alive. As a result, we're taking a lot of our blood supply from people in society who have the least healthy lifestyles.
Dr. Lanka: I know all the details. This what I'm going to tell you. Professor Hässig once met the person responsible for the industry to produce industrial blood products, and once, when this person was drunk while visiting the Fiji Islands after a conference in Australia, this person told Professor Hässig that soon they are going to smash the state-owned blood producing units, based on voluntary blood donations, because they're much cheaper producing their blood products because they go into the Third World countries, and they are already there in all the prisons of the dictators in South America and elsewhere.
When Hässig heard about this, he rang some of his friends -- and, of course, Hässig was the leading person in the blood business -- and at this time there were some non-corrupted people in the WHO (World Health Organization). So, in an emergency meeting, on short notice so the industry had not time to corrupt the members who decided on these issues, they decided that the position of the WHO would be that it isn't allowed to produce plasma in the Third World, because they would bleed them out.
Now they are bleeding out the poorest of the poor, and they are going to Mexico, near where we are sitting right now. In order to help the commercial blood products industry, the FDA [U.S. Food and Drug Administration] has approved that a single person may give up to 50 units of plasma a year. That means he may drop in two times a week to give blood and liver plasma. And an elephant wouldn't possibly survive that, right? So that's the background, and what they did when all that was in place was they changed the way they were treating hemophiliacs. It started in California.
Up to the year 1969 it was forbidden to give the clotting factors to hemophiliacs unless they had internal bleeding. If they would give them prophylactically, antibodies would be produced because these blood products are highly contaminated. In 1969 the industry started to convince some medical doctors -- and the first one was a woman doctor in California -- to treat hemophiliac patients prophylactically with those clotting factors, and this is how the industry made a lot of money. And, of course, the bodies of the se hemophiliacs made a lot of antibodies against those products, which had been foreseen. They've had to use higher doses of clotting factors ever since, in order to compete with those antibodies, so that those clotting factors actually work. They gradually have to increase the amount they are injecting.
This has been the biggest business in the blood industry ever since. Nobody's speaking about this, but that's why almost all hemophiliacs have come down with hepatitis. If you inject such a high amount of foreign proteins, and all the contaminants, then of course the liver, as the central metabolic organ, is stressed out, resulting in hepatic inflammations. A lot of hemophiliacs died from hepatitis, and it was blamed on nonexistent viruses.
>>>>Please explain the hepatitis outbreaks from restaurants that are linked to employee with hep A.
How was this research performed? How was this confirmed? There is so much variable data needed to ascertain the preciseness of that affirmation! Nevertheless, IF that is true and reliable/verifiable information, mind you that you do not need only viruses to be contaminated through blood, a diseased blood may also contaminate, and that´s Dr.Lanka´s precise point. His points and some of his scientific papers (which I read, mainly on HIV) make a lot of sense to me!
"Dr. Lanka: No, there's no such thing as infectious hepatitis."
Please explain the hepatitis outbreaks from restaurants that are linked to employee with hep A.
Hepatitis viruses have also been isolated from seafoods since hepatitis viruses can liver for quite a while in ocean water. In fact cases of viral hepatitis, polio and other viral conditions have been reported t be contracted from swimming in contaminated waters of the ocean. And there was an article in the Journal of Public health which reported something like 80,000 cases of hepatitis being contracted from chlorinated drinking water in one year.
And we still have to keep in mind that viruses are not the only pathogens capable of causing infectious hepatitis. So the claim that there is no such thing as infectious hepatitis is ludicrous to begin with. The claim just shows a complete ignorance as to what hepatitis really is.
Zenger's: Are you saying that all forms of hepatitis are non- infectious, or just some of them?
Dr. Lanka: No, there's no such thing as infectious hepatitis.
Yes there are many forms of infectious hepatitis, and not all are viral.
"..an "endogenous retrovirus" -- a creation of the body's own genetic material that looks and functions partly like a virus, but is not an infection because it comes from the body's own cells."
So the conclusion is that a poor diet, redundant alcohol consumption and a genetic predisposition to the effects of same are the true causes of HCV?
Again there are many causes of hepatitis. This is because hepatitis is simply inflammation of the liver.
Are you familiar with the works of some scientists who attest that HCV and HIV do NOT exist?
I have heard these claims before, but I disagree. How could they have produced electron microscope images of these viruses without isolating the viruses?:
http://wiki.verkata.com/en/wiki/Hepatitis_C_virus
Electron micrograph of Hepatitis C virus produced in cell culture. Scale: black bar = 50 nanometres
Virus classification
http://knol.google.com/k/aids#
Figure: Mature HIV viruses budding from a cell as seen through electron microscopy (from Public Health Image Library)
Same with genetic sequencing of these viruses.
<< Hepatitis-C virus was never a reality or even an artefact, only an invention. After the riddle around Hepatitis-B virus (HBV) - still "not vailable for experiments" - was set so the general public had the impression the Hep-B antibody test really detects antibodies formed in reaction to infection with HBV (and the vaccination programme against it wa sestablished), innovative scientists filled the gap in explaining hepatitis without antibodies against hepatitis-A virus (HAV) and HBV as "a viral non-A non-B Hepatitis"
There is also hepatitis D, E, F, and G. So how does he explain these? On the other hand other than electron microscope there is NO way to confirm the presence of any hepatitis virus. Antibody testing and polymerase chain reaction (PCR, viral load) do not prove the presence of or activity of any virus.
And there numerous causes of hepatitis including hepatitis viruses, herpes viruses, bacteria, fungi, parasites, pharmaceutical drugs, certain chemicals such as carbon tetrachloride, trauma, autoimmunity, etc.
I have heard these claims before, but I disagree.
Sorry Hv, but how can you disagree with something you have only heard of without a deep study? This forum is called The Truth in Medicine.
How could they have produced electron microscope images of these viruses without isolating the viruses?:
Here´s your answer (for the HIV virus):
www.theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question3.html
and
www.theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question7.html
And these are only to start with - there are lots of papers on this exact theme! Very conclusive ones as a matter of fact!
I wish you got interested in the matter and read at least the links I sent in my initial post. Although I know you may have other priorities at the moment...but, at least, do not be so conclusive without an in-depth study of the matter, for the sake of the truth in medicine....which, as you well know, may change considerably over time! There is an incredible amount of scientific data to go over in this matter...I´m just beginning, mind you, so I cannot really be conclusive, although from what I have read so far on both sides of the question, it seems to be one more great big pharma hoax to make HUGE profits. In the case of Hep C, the Chiron Corporation labs are the great beneficiary. If you care to read this extract from Peter H. Duesberg´s book "Inventing the Aids Virus", where he explains what was done by Chiron to "discover" the Hep C virus:
www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/07/05/hepatitis_c_epidemic_where_is_the_virus.htm
I have heard these claims before, but I disagree.
Sorry Hv, but how can you disagree with something you have only heard of without a deep study? This forum is called The Truth in Medicine.
How could they have produced electron microscope images of these viruses without isolating the viruses?:
Here´s your answer (for the HIV virus):
www.theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question3.html
and
www.theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question7.html
To address a few of their claims:
3. In no HIV "infected" cultures to date are there particles which fulfil the Gelderblom definition. That is, that display both principle morphological characteristics of retroviruses, that is "a diameter of 100-120nm" AND surfaces which "are studded with projections (spikes, knobs)".
Yes, the "knobs, spikes" have been found:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/303/
4. In the only EM study, either in vivo or in vitro, in which suitable controls were used and in which extensive blind examination of controls and test material was performed virus particles indistinguishable from "HIV" were foundin 18/20 (90%) of AIDS as well as in 13/15 (88%) of non-AIDS or no risk of AIDS related lymph node enlargements.This led the authors to conclude: "The presence of such particles do not, by themselves indicate infection with HIV" [7]. Seehere andhere. Can you distinguish the AIDS from the non-AIDS patient?
Where they are making a mistake here is in thinking that AIDS is a disease, which it is not. AIDS is a syndrome, which is a group of symptoms. Therefore there is not a singular cause, and therefore virus WILL NOT be found in all cases of AIDS. In fact the most common cause of AIDS has nothing to do with a virus, it is drug induced. The drug AZT and its analogues destroy the bone marrow leading to a collapse of the immune system and thus AIDS.
I have discussed this and the problems with antibody testing numerous times in previous posts. So I do agree with them as far as the antibody testing, but they are ignoring a lot of other evidence.
Normal cells also possess reverse transcribing enzymes which are not RT.
I noticed that they keep ignoring the fact that the virus has been genetically sequenced. In order to genetically sequence the virus the virus must first be isolated. And one fact they have ignored is that the virus has the gene for the production of RT, not just the enzyme.
I wish you got interested in the matter and read at least the links I sent in my initial post.
I did, but they were not evidence. They were opinion articles overlooking a lot of evidence. Although as I said there are some statements I did agree with and had addressed numerous times in previous posts. For example the fact that HIV cannot cause AIDS under the original definition of AIDS. The definition of AIDS was changed to fit the virus after Gallo lied about HIV being the cause of AIDS. This does not mean though that the virus does not exist.
www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/07/05/hepatitis_c_epidemic_where_is_the_virus.htm
This is old information I have seen posted before on the AOL boards when I use to post on there. A lot has been learned since that time.
Although as I said there are some statements I did agree with and had addressed numerous times in previous posts. For example the fact that HIV cannot cause AIDS under the original definition of AIDS. The definition of AIDS was changed to fit the virus after Gallo lied about HIV being the cause of AIDS. This does not mean though that the virus does not exist.
That´s exactly the point that Dr. Peter Duesberg is trying to make: That the HIV virus really exists but is not responsible for AIDS. But this is once more refutted by both the Perth Group and Dr. Lanka (I´m sorry again, but theirs are not just opinions. They are quite knowlegeable and do offer lots of evidence - which again makes me think you did not really read the links I posted. For this discussion alone there is the link to questions and answers in The Perth Group site and the link in their site to Dr. Stefan Lanka.
Yes, the "knobs, spikes" have been found:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/303/
Yes, but in that link´s site there is no mention of their diameter, which is of capital importance. This is an extract concerning another sample but will do for what I want to illustrate: “The point is that any genuine retroviral particle contains a fixed amount of RNA and protein. No more and no less. This means that if we consider diameters of particles pointed in the two studies, they are 1.14 times to 1.96 times larger than the estimated maximum for a normal HIV particle. Translating this in volumes, and comparing them to a particle with a diameter of 120nM, the Franco/German particles have 50% more volume than a retroviral particle and the US particles have 750% more volume”, that is to say incompatible with the same definition of a retrovirus! Even if the authors do not admit it, the data of the two cited papers contribute to show that where should be present pure HIV, of HIV there is no trace."
Where they are making a mistake here is in thinking that AIDS is a disease, which it is not. AIDS is a syndrome, which is a group of symptoms.
Maybe only in the parts you´ve read! But in the sites containing the links I posted there are loads of references and evidence (papers and reports) and articles that do NOT see AIDS as a disease but as a syndrome (refering to what you say here).
Nevertheless, according to the majority of sites, this is what they say about disease and syndrome: The two terms are not applied rigorously. AIDS is still called a "syndrome" even though we now have a good line on the cause, the HIV virus. It acquired the name "syndrome" before the cause was known, and it has stuck. Others would say that the HIV infection is the disease, and that AIDS is the syndrome (set of symptoms) caused by it, because you can have the HIV infection without having AIDS. The two terms overlap substantially and sometimes you can only tell what a particular person (even a medical person) means from context.
I noticed that they keep ignoring the fact that the virus has been genetically sequenced. In order to genetically sequence the virus the virus must first be isolated. And one fact they have ignored is that the virus has the gene for the production of RT, not just the enzyme.
If you read deeper in their papers you would have known that they do not ignore neither facts.
This is a random pick on the subject:
"As already stated, genomic amplification techniques concern small segments, not surely the complete “viral” genome and the results which are obtained do not give the assurance to have the true “HIV”, besides they are frankly discordant. At this point it's legitimate to ask what is really and how it's made the original viral genome. The reserch group from Perth (69) notes that if an unique AIDS retrovirus existed, then less than 1% genomic differences should be the rule, not the exception. For instance, the type 3 Sabin poliovirus vaccine differed from its neurovirulent progenitor at only 10 nucleotide positions after 53 in vitro and 21 in vivo passages in monkey tissues. In 1977, H1N1 influenza A virus reappeared in the human population after 27 years of dormancy with sequences mainly identical to those of the 1950s virus”. Although Eigen's quasispecies model has been used to describe the genome of RNA viruses, even 1% sequence differences in these genomes are considered to represent “extreme variability”. “Many selective forces may stabilize virus populations. These stabilizing factors may include the need for conservation of protein structure and function, RNA secondary structure, glycosylation sites, and phosphorylation sites”. Let us see what is the picture offered by HIV research. Not long afterwards it was discovered that “If you were to test two HIVpositive people at random and analyse the genetic material of their strains, they would differ, on average, by about 13 percent” (70). Besides what is considered to be the genotype of HIV comes from sequence analysis of subgenomes that HIV genotype consignments are derived from sequence analysis of subgenomes measuring 2% to 30% of the total (71). The data is that such “genomes” vary between 3-40% (72,73). “If 30% of the HIV genome varies as much as 40%, how much does 100% of the HIV genome vary? This is the legitimate question of Eleopulos and colleagues (69).
Among researchers there is disagreement also about the number of HIV genes. In 1988 they said HIV genome had eight genes (74), in 1990 ten (75). In 1996 Montagnier referred that HIV had eight genes (76), and according to Barré-Sinoussi, HIV has nine genes (77) Not even the number of nucleotides of HIV genome seems to be constant (69)
HIV quasi-species
Because great genomic differences were found - even the same person can harbor more than 106-108 genetically distinct variants (78) - to try to find a justification for this phenomenon, the concept of quasi-species has been introduced. Prior to the 1990s, the HIV sequences were classified as African and USA/European with sequence differences of 20-30 percent between these two groups. (79). In the 1990s, HIV researchers started to divide the “HIV genome” into subtypes A, B, C, D, E, etc. The basis for this classification system is: “(a) subtypes are approximately equidistant from one another in env; (b) the env phylogenetic tree is for the most part congruent with gag phylogenetic trees; (c) two or more samples are required to define a sequence subtype”. However, “Subtype naming problems have arisen. A small but not insignificant number of viral sequences are hybrid, clustering with one sequence subtype in gag and another sequence subtype in env, for example;... Naming becomes problematic when highly divergent forms of a given subtype arises: such forms are sometimes designated A', B', F', etc”. It is increasingly necessary to have sequence data from both gag and env coding sequences when a new form or subtype is being claimed” (80). By the middle of 1996 “at least ten” (A-J) prevalent major (M) and a low prevalence, O, HIV-1 genotypes were described and new genotypes are still reported (81,82).
Is it possible then to describe the “HIV DNA” even if it has variation of 10% , not to mention 20 or 30 or 40% as is the case, as a ...”population of closely related genomes, referred to as a quasispecies” (69)? The extreme variability of HIV genome make us ask what is the sense to refer to HIV as a clear distinct entity. The genomic difference among human being of different race is about 1 per 1.000, between man and orang-utan about 2%, but to find a 30% difference is necessary to compare non the less man and mouse, man and ass, man and elephant! Can one consider mouse, ass and elephant as quasi-species of man?."
more here:
www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/epreplyintervlm.htm
www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/07/05/hepatitis_c_epidemic_where_is_the_virus.htm
This is old information I have seen posted before on the AOL boards when I use to post on there. A lot has been learned since that time.
Yes I realize 2003 is a long way back, but my interest in posting this was to expose the whole Chiron labs strategy which has not been altered at all by time.
Anyway Hv, I´m not a knowlegeable student on this matter, but am reading a lot...and actually have not really reached a conclusion yet. But one thing is for sure: there are many many sides to this question!