Quite the difference between taking leaps of faith that defy all logic and leaps of faith regarding forces and mysteries we don't currently understand based on our very limited scientific knowledge. I personally have a real problem with people who refuse to accept anything having any validity if it has not bee proven and validated scientifically - in great part because such thinking is far too prevalent in mainstream medical "science". Such thinking has been used to try to discredit meridians, healing energy, homeopathy, accupuncture, aromatherapy and more (though aromatherapy has recently been validated conclusively scientifically, as just one example of where the absurd belief that todays's science has all the answers was wrong).
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and accepted science is often overturned - and thank goodness it is. Otherwise we would still believe that the world was flat and the sun and rest of the universe revolved around the earth, or that the atom was the smallest particle in nature. Now, I am certainly not saying that you are one of those who are so staid that they refuse to accept even the possibility of some of what might be called the supernatural today actually being valid despite the lack of current scientific proof. But I will say that people with such an inflexible attitude rank no better in my mind than those who refuse to believe anything other than that what is written (and has been re-written, edited and changed many times - most often with a definite agenda on the part of the revisionists, translators and/or editors) in an ancient book is absolutely inerrant in every single word and sentence.
I don't think the Bible is inerrant and neither do I think today's science is anywhere near to inerrant.
Yeah, I have seen that one before. Certainly there has been no end of creationist theory that has tried to find facts to fit the theory. When such facts are used to try validate the Bible as unerring fact, they have often been sadly comical. But that is not to say that some kind of creation did not occur or that intelligent design is invalid, just that such things are beyond our current scientific and intellectual grasp.
The problem with the scientific method is that it is only able to interpret things based on the very limited scientific understanding of the day and tends to reject anything that has not been understood and "scientifically" validated before. Thus it is constantly being overturned with the discovery of forces and processes that it did not understand or know about. And sometimes, as Einstein would tell you, understanding takes a leap of faith.
And, when it comes to what passes for the "scientific" method, there too you often see facts gathered to fit pre-conceived conclusions. Look at the mainstream drug studies for example. That is how we tend to operate anyway. A prosecutor decides that the suspect is guilty and proceeds to gather evidence which solely supports that premise while wearing blinders to any other evidence. There are no end of other examples. Even when it comes to evolution and denial of even the possibility of creation of some kind.
Was not the birth of our present universe an act of creation by definition? We can argue the minutaie of how evolution (or adaption) has occured and how all the stellar bodies and such came to be, but something started the ball rolling, at least on a cosmic scale. And life seems to find a way . . . as if it were somehow designed to do so.
Contemplating the creation of the universe and life itself has been one of our more perplexing and persistent endeavors. I don't think we are anywhere close to having the answer. I surely don't.
OK, that is entirely too serious. Back to humor:
"Was not the birth of our present universe an act of creation by definition? We can argue the minutaie of how evolution (or adaption) has occured and how all the stellar bodies and such came to be, but something started the ball rolling, at least on a cosmic scale. And life seems to find a way . . . as if it were somehow designed to do so."
Well, there are theories that our universe, or even a meta-verse, may have always existed. If, under the current understanding of the "Big Bang" and the genesis of the universe, you trace a "cause and effect" series of inter-relationships that is the universe back to a single point, you are indeed confronted the unavoidable and unfathomable conundrum of an "uncaused cause". There are numerous cosmological theories, building from the knowledge of quantum mechanics, the posit that the universe has always existed. There are also many theories about the illusory nature of both time and space- ultimately that neither exist. They just appear to us to exist. And without time, there is ultimately no "before" or "after" although from our fractured sensory perspective it appears otherwise. Either way, you have either a pre-existent universe, or a pre-existence "something" (the uncaused cause) that caused the universe.
Note: I have always found it funny that those who invoke God as a creator often use the fact that there is order, beauty, love, and intelligence in the manifest world. They say that this evidence that we must have been created by something. And yet God, who is they contend is the utter apotheosis of order, beauty, intelligence, is uncreated.
In accordance with the conventional cosmoglogical theories about time and the birth of the unvierse, you do indeed need "something" pre-existent. But what if LIFE and all that is manifest in the physical (and non-physical) universe is that pre-existent something. What if all of life, all of existence is that unborn/uncreated "something" that is constantly changing and becoming eternally NEW every second.
Even if the "Big Bang" was the start of our manifest universe, what if it wasn't truly a beginning, but rather a profound transmutation in the pre-existent, unformed, uncreated "something." This is the direction that cosmology and physics are moving.
No matter theory you subscribe to, your are inevitably left with that pre-existent "something." In current cosmological theory, which is rapidly evolving mind you, this pre-existent something isn't really acknowledged directly. The cosmologists talk about the infinite amount of energy packed into the infintessimally small point that gave "birth" to the universe through the massive expansion known at the "Big Bang" but they don't explicity state where that energy came from or if it came from anything. They tend to allude to the fact that it didn't come from anything, and are implicity saying that this infinite energy was/is pre-existent. Did this infintessimally small point of infinite energy (the pre-existent "something") really give "birth" to/create the universe or did it become the universe. If that pre-existent enery was and is INFINITE, then it was and is All That Is. There is nothing outside of it. Nothing can be outside of it. Nothing can be created, for there is nothing more that can be generated (created) because it is All That Exists. How do you add more to infinity? Therefore, that pre-existent energy doesn't create, it changes, it becomes. All That Exists is eternally becoming New.
The laws of conservation of energy and matter state that energy and matter (matter is fundamentally immaterial; it is energy vibrating at a particular frequency) cannot be either created or destroyed. This energy (that is light, matter, intelligence...everything) cannot be created or destroyed. It cannot be added to or subtracted from. It can only change. It can only become new through change.
The Three theories of existence:
Instituionalized western religions posit that the pre-existent created the cosmos and everything in it.
Mystics of every spiritual tradition have always contended that the pre-existent IS the cosmos and everything in it.
Science, without ever explicity acknowledging anything as pre-existent, is most congruent with the mystical view of the universe. It is evolving and becoming even more aligned as more is learned.
Something I have never been able to wrap my mind around is the idea that the Cosmos has simply always existed. When you cut through all the theories of different dimensions and universes and such, to my simple mind everything has to have a beginning and ultimately an end. Neither have I been able to accept the idea that the universe is infinite, even though it may appear to be infinite to our finite minds and understanding.
Everything I can observe here in my universe demonstrably had such a beginning and it is demonstrable that such things also have an end. Thus that is my frame of reference and the question to me is "How did the matter that lead to the creation of the universe come to be in the very beginning". Saying that there never was a beginning defies what logic I possess. Likewise, when I look out at my yard, I see a finite number of trees, just as there are a finite number here on my world. When I look up at space, it may seem infinite alright, but in fact there are a limited number of stars out there. New ones are being created and old ones destroyed constantly, but the same is true about those trees and they are still finite in number.
Even if one were to accept the idea of an infinite universe, is not "changing" and "becoming new" terms that could be called "creating". If I take a lump of clay, sculpt it and bake it and make a statue I have changed it and it has become something new - and I have created that statue as well. In that example, I was the "force" which took matter and created something new. I was the creator. So what do we call the forces that created the universe and continue to create on a cosmic scale? And what about all the "laws" science has ascribed to the cosmic forces? Forces which create according to rules . . . sounds to me like there is a plan in there somewhere - even if our infinitessimally small intellects cannot come close to grasping it.
I consider the scientific idea of time, space and matter never having a beginning and being truly infinite to be as much of a scientific cop-out as the "miracle card" is. It conveniently explains away the concept of creation, but what it really does is provide a cover for the fact that is a very great deal that our limited intelligence and science simply don't know. If you accept the idea that life was not uniquely created on this one tiny speck of a planet then you would have to consider that the odds are that there is life out there which is millions of years more advanced than we are, which perhaps had our level of technology and science millions of years ago. Only a few hundred years ago, we thought the earth was flat and that the sun and rest of the universe revolved around us and look how we have advanced in our knowledge in a relative blink of time. Another way of looking at that is that our current "scientific" understanding is really only a blink of an eye more advanced that fundamental creation theory.
Compared to those who are perhaps millions of years farther along, we might be mere amoebas. And yet we pretend to have the answers outside our little petri dish regarding the creation and secrets of the entire universe?
The theory of a pre-existent universe is just another theory. My point was, and I think you would agree, is that at some point, you most have an unmoved mover, uncaused cause, etc. This has to be pre-existent because it cannot have been created. If it was, you have to then ask, "What created that?" until you finally reach something that truly was uncaused. That is the pre-existent.
The question then becomes, are you (and everything else) created by that which is pre-existent...or are you an aspect of it.
Even if the universe did have a start and will have an end, doesn't that still mean that something doesn't. Did this intelligent designer that you speak of have a beginning and does it have an end?
We can attach whatever name we want, we are all describing the same thing- the pre-existent.
"If I take a lump of clay, sculpt it and bake it and make a statue I have changed it and it has become something new - and I have created that statue as well. "
Well, I would have to ask, have you really fundamentally created something or did you re-arrange and transform something that already existed. As you said, "If I take a lump of clay..." you are conceeding the the lump of clay was already there. You merely shaped it and rearranged it into a statue. You can say that you "created" a statue, and we do say such things all of the time, but you truly didn't in the purest sense of the concept. You made the form of the clay new. Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but I think it is an important disctinction.
"How did the matter that lead to the creation of the universe come to be in the very beginning"
If you are invoking the existence of an intelligent designer because of the fact that matter came into existence, this assumes that anything that exists must have been created. My question would be, What brought the intelligent designer into existence? And once you name that, then tell me what brought that which brought the intelligent designer into existence?
Isn't it eventually necessary to have something that is pre-existent? Is that a cop-out?
I consider the scientific idea of time, space and matter never having a beginning and being truly infinite to be as much of a scientific cop-out as the "miracle card" is.
It's just one theory. The point was, at some point you have to have a pre-existent "something". Something that was unborn, uncreated, unformed, etc. This could, and is, considered a scientific cop-out as well, but do you deny that?
Are you saying that the entire notion of pre-existence of anything is a cop-out? Or is it just a cop-out when it is ascribed to the universe. It is no longer a cop-out when it is ascribed to an intelligent designer, am I correct?
The question really is this- Did that pre-existent "something" create the cosmos (both seen and unseen) or is the cosmos a manifestation of that pre-existent "something"? Creation entails separation and the ceramic theory of the universe. Transformation entails intimate non-separation between All That Exists.
You seem to be intimating that there is this deep duality of existence- the dichomotization of Creator and Creation. The "intelligent designer" and that which the intelligent designer designed. What if the cosmos and everything in it (and "outside" of it) is the singular manifestation of the pre-existent ? No duality, just singularity.
What if that everything that exists IS that which caused it. Not two (creator and creation) but ONE. It is something to think about for those who insist on duality and separation, when it could in fact be otherwise. Maybe the energy that underlies everything was never created and maybe that energy never itself creates, but rather changes form.