biological facts 
actualhealth
14 y
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you have to understand that not a lot of lab testing has being done on the *actual* benefits of fasting, some yes but very little 'documented' evidence of any 'permanent' benefits. there are mounds of testimonies from people claiming their bodies functioned better after one (for while) but also plenty claiming they didn't.
and as eager to believe, as many fasters are, that all toxins consumed during one's life can be removed by fasting and/or will remain locked in our fatty tissues till old age if we don't, there are still no tests proving this.
in fact i'm still searching for definitive proof that pesticides, preservatives and artificial food coloring s etc are excreted in 'larger' quantities via the bladder, bowel and skin during a fast than when not fasting ..or that distilled water 'only' leaches out inorganic minerals (considering everything is organic - chelated by vegetables or not) but does not leach out organic minerals. like where's the *actual* evidence?
one can find can plenty of websites and books written by people *claiming* these marvelous things happen but that's not actual proof! and given humanity's track record, one would have to be a total idiot to blindly *believe* *anything* we say! we are liars (unless your one of those who still thinks de nial is a river in egypt). the fact is most egos are either wannabe gurus or making a living promoting the benefits of their product regardless of proof, so of course they want you to believe them, they get something out of it!
and don't forget why medical Science arose in the first place, it was to free us from snake oil merchants and all the other ridiculous cures humans are prone to indulge in without proof. like using the bile of those poor bears for one and the fins of millions of sharks, another. we are m*o*o*ns. Medical research now costs every nation HEAPS to ensure the safety of its citizens (and other species) from the crap we indulge in.
LOOK for the tangible experiential facts if you wish to become a healthy sensible human being. theres enough blind followers out there already, destroying the human body and the planet without you helping. don't blindly depend on one persons hearsay. get the tangible experiential facts and most of all experiment for yourself.
facts are marvelous because every time we do discover one, then hurray! it sets us free from another blind belief. beliefs (fervent *wishes* only, that something be so) they are what primitive cultures live by when they don't have the facts. but you can, so go get em. then you'll discover that once you know the *actual* fact of something its pointless to continue laying a belief on top of it. facts speak for themselves. facts is far safer than beliefs.
one thing most people do agree on is their bodies worked better after a fast - for a while - but then less food also does that. and as long as they are careful especially after a long fast and don't burst an artery exercising before the fatty membranes of the epithelial arterial cells have strengthened and wait until their platelets and immunoglobins have returned to normal, then the body should remain healthier if eating more vegetables than it was prior.
of course fasting can start up an addictive cycle of overeating ...even healthy foods... or become a crutch for a junk binge if you aren't careful. so beware.
and of course none of this would happen if one just used one's brain and cared enough to eat a healthy Diet all one's life. but thats a bit too much to ask of this primitive species at the mo, its STILL too busy fancying itself as a loving (ahem) spiritual being in crystal ball fairyland.
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
12,213
This is a reply to # 1,651,844actualhealth,
the biological and or physiological effects of fasting are well known. There is no mystery as to what occurs on a water-only fast.
For example, it is well-documented that the body transfers from the burning of glucose to that of ketones in order to provide an energy source for the body, and where the process of autolysis is very selective in the materials it uses for this energy-source by ridding the body of its effluent materials first and foremost, whilst leaving the essential tissues until last, and the starvation period has begun in earnest.
Even in death from starvation, it has been shown in Yeos and Chossats physiology, that the essential organs and tissues are well-preserved, and suffer few losses compared to the fats and subcutaneous/adipose tissues which have become exhausted.
I think you will also find that fasting is extremely beneficial for anyone that utilizes it, and any unsuccessful attempts are usually attributable to the "conduct" of the fast, rather than the fast itself.
Contraindications to fasting are few and far between.
Double-blind and/or open trials only apply within the realm of drug-trials against disease, as each individual who undertakes a fast is unique, and at a very different stage and development of their disease/health status. Fasting works on the basis of "Evidence-based medicine" and not "Science-based medicine".
The proof of the benefits in fasting lie within the annals of fasting literature dating back to the early 1800's to today, and from the thousands upon thousands of individuals who have recovered their health when Mainstream have largely failed them previously.
Your comment that there is: "no proof that the toxins we consumed as a child and adult stay there permanently, or that fasting removes them all",..............we should bear in mind that the body is constantly in the processes of catabolism and anabolism or the breaking down and building-up of tissues in metabolism, and where fasting creates an acceleration of these processes.
Toxins (any substance that is recognized as foreign to the body) and which includes pesticides, preservatives and so on, are mainly, but not exclusively, contained with adipose and subcutaneous fat deposits, and in the process of ketosis and autolysis are broken down and released into the bloodstream where they are then expelled by the organs of elimination.
It is true to say however that one long fast may not be sufficient time for the complete elimination of these toxins to take place, and where a subsequent fast may be necessary to achieve this.
This has been the experience of qualified Natural Hygienic Doctors over the last century and a half.
Test results are not required, but sufficient "results" have been obtained in the analysis of urine to establish this.
There are no definitive tests to prove one way or the other that distilled water is harmful in any way, except to say that most people (the vast majority) who have fasted with this water, have had no ill-effects but only distinct benefit (as in my own case).
If you are looking for definitive proof then you will be hard-pressed to find any except the voluminous testimonials that exist where distilled water has been used.
We should also bear in mind that the rain cycle produces distilled water in Nature, and it is only the intervention and influence of man that perverts this quality via atmospheric pollution.
With regard to "Science"; the Science of today has largely changed from the Science of yesterday, and where tomorrows Science will be as different again.
Science is ever-evolving. The theory of evolution for example is just that: a theory. Evolution cannot be measured or observed which is the yardstick for proof, but taken as fact by many scientists and taught in schools as such.
I agree with you: "knowledge of actual facts (not hearsay) is the key to good health".
Examine the "factual testimonials" from the time of Hippocrates and Paracelsus concerning fasting, and you will understand what this means.
Chrisb1.
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- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,634
This is a reply to # 1,651,952Chris, thanks for replying.
i've read in many posts of yours that you were diagnosed with leukemia as a young man and that 2 long fasts enabled your immune to cure it. since its obviously not too personal (your having publicized it often) may i ask what type you had and whether you have fasted again, since then, for long periods?
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,936
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This is a reply to # 1,652,109actualhealth,
yes I had Leukemia at the age of 23, although I now know that fasting in itself did not "cure" the disease, but allowed the body to initiate its own self-healing mechanism that is inhibited whilst eating.
The type of Leukemia remains a mystery, as when you are given a death-sentence of 6 months, little else matters. I did try and find out within recent years in trying to prove my case, but the primary care trust that holds the records for patients, only last seven years if you move away from the area in which this occurred they are not kept.
I have had no extended fasts since that time as my body does not require or need them, but I have had a few cleansing fasts of 12 days or so every couple of years to keep a check on my toxemia levels.
In response to nothingbetter's post concerning
Q. 1. Does does fasting work? Yes.
Q. 2. Why does it work?.............
However, the comment.........
"But the fact that the above is true and well documented in no way proves or, even in and of its self, provides particularly strong evidence, for the theory that it improves health by cleansing the body of "toxins" that the body is unable to rid itself of otherwise".
A/ The theory of detoxification and the prevention of disease is based on the evidence that it works in practice. The body receives nutrition from outside, uses the elements it needs, and then discards the waste products; but if this elimination is "checked" by enervation or a lowered nerve-force, toxicity results and forms the basis of the causation of disease...................
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020103toxemia/02010301.html
It is also well-attested that those of normal weight or even obese, can have no symptoms of detox if their bodily cells are pure. Anyone of any weight who is toxic, will experience symptoms of detox, but at the same weight, will not experience these symptoms while fasting if they are toxemia-free: no dark/black-colored urine or foul breath or bad-taste in the mouth; no nausea or sickness and other detox symptoms.
This was my own experience in my first extended fast followed by a virtually symptom-toxemic-free second extended fast.
The burning of fat in ketosis will not produce any symptoms of detox at all, if the body is free from any toxic load, and whether these toxins be of an endogenous or exogenous origin. One has only to experience this to fully appreciate the difference between toxicity and the freedom from the same.
Metabolism will be also lowered by approx' one quarter, but this does not necessarily mean that symptoms of detox will occur and frequently does not do so if toxemia is not present or evident.
Health benefits come from detox in allowing the body to concentrate on its main task of healing, and where this is more easily accomplished in a toxic-free body in that all the energies of the body (including digestive energy) are used for that purpose.
The body is also a self-healing, self-cleansing and self-maintaining organism, and where these qualities are greatly accelerated by water-only fasting instead of being encumbered by external nutrition, and allowing the body to play "catch-up" in the above main tasks.
This is Natures plan and always has been.
"WANT OF APPETITE is not always a morbid symptom, nor even a sign of imperfect digestion. Nature may have found it necessary to muster all the energies of our system for some special purpose, momentarily of paramount importance. Organic changes and repairs, teething, pleuritic eruptions, and the external elimination of bad humors (boils, etc.), are often attended with a temporary suspension of the alimentary process. As a rule, it is always the safest plan to give Nature her own way.
--FELIX L. OSWALD MD.
Your body will tell you everything, if, and only if, you listen to it carefully.
Chrisb1.
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,691
This is a reply to # 1,652,309chrisb1,
ok. so are you saying that when you were diagnosed with a hematological malignancy you (and your parents?) were so shocked you (all?) totally forgot what type the doctor said you had?
because if he didn't tell you and they just began preparations to throw you into life threatening treatment (do you at least remember what they were going to put into you?) then you had a pretty dicey doctor and this should have rung warning bells to you and your family and you should have gone for a second opinion quick smart. or (and i'm uncomfortable saying this but.....) did your doctor/s perhaps judge/misjudge you and your family to be incapable of handling the facts? (something doctors used to do but which is considered medical negligence and malpractice these days).
the reason i ask is because you often write about this event in your life that has no documented evidence as tho it positively confirms that Water Fasting cured your leukemia and can cure cancer.
but what i'm more curious about is why, with so little evidence did you choose to be absolutely sure that you DID HAVE a monoclonal malignancy, when without even a memory of the details, there is an EQUAL possibility that you did NOT HAVE blood cancer and could have simply been misdiagnosed?
more importantly, have you ever asked yourself why (why any human being for that matter) are so eager to 'believe' what other people 'say' without any 'actual, factual' evidence?
this is a life and death question for the human race and should be asked *constantly* by every caring human being as we watch what our willingness to turn a blind eye and ignore the facts has done to all life on this planet.
btw i have a lot of respect for the time and effort you put in here even if your own fasting experience was 30 years ago. it is obviously much needed by many fasters here who are still not sure how to utilize this vast reservoir of knowledge called the net.
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- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,922
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This is a reply to # 1,652,471actualhealth,
30 odd years ago I was informed in the presence of my parents, that I had an advanced form of Leukemia.
No one forgot, as the exact medical nomenclature seemed to be irrelevant and of little importance when you have only 6 months to live.
The diagnosis was confirmed via a second opinion at another major Hospital in the same County.
Chemotherapy was to be the planned treatment.
It is true that I have no documented evidence for reasons I have explained in my earlier post.
Fasting though has had much success against Leukemia, as is documented in the book by Arnold DeVries: "Therapeutic Fasting".
You or anyone else can choose not to believe my ordeal and diagnosis, and method of cure, but this does not negate the facts of the matter. I am not, or have ever been prone to lying.
The choice is yours, and I respect your right and opinion in being skeptical.
Chrisb1.- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,450
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,652,504chrisb1, i would continue but the message you are sending by saying "I am not, or have ever been prone to lying" (which was never the issue) is - in any culture - a defensive response, so i will stop here.
- Re: biological facts Mighty.Sun.Tzu
14 y
11,486
This is a reply to # 1,652,514Aww gee actualhealth. A bull in a china shop wouldn't stop thrashing about breaking things, so why should you?
2 separate doctors told Chris and his parents that he had advanced stage leukemia. Because nobody "wrote down" or particularly "cared about" which specific type, you choose to cast doubt upon the entire experience? The appropriate time for defending oneself is the point at which the attacks become ridiculous and relentless.
Unless Chris is indeed a liar, he had advanced stage Leukemia and your continued doubts are nothing short of obnoxious.- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
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This is a reply to # 1,652,539Advertisement
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ah mighty.sun.tzu, what happened to all that sweetness and light? a good steak perhaps and feeling feisty now ;-)
don't panic your only imagining things. an actualist only seems like a bull in a china shop to a dreamer. nothing in that non-actual realm can be shattered without the dreamers consent - how else do you think humanity has remained so deluded and unchanged for so long.
i'm simply a fellow human being and a friend, and a very different one at that. i often say: "the facts will set you free but first they will piss you off" (and in your case even the mere request for them?). so don't blame me mighty.proud.one, i'm not here to offend or debate anyone, merely discuss the facts and share my own experiences.
in Chris's case i simply asked whether he'd ever been given the medical records confirming his leukemia and type. when he replied in the negative and that the records including his re-test - after his *miraculous* fasting cure - had been trashed by the hospital ??? it was only natural to wonder why on earth he'd chosen to 'believe' them then when one would expect he (of all people) would be more likely to consider them wrong (as he usually does).
another reason i asked about this undocumented yet cured cancer he constantly advertised was because i naturally wondered whether he too was guilty of the same thing he accused the medical profession of, to wit: making snake oil money, only in his case out of selling a book?.
in fact the alarm bells rang the moment he responded to such inevitable questions in an offended and defensive manner (a response btw - i later discovered - he'd shown on another forum). and i was also curious why he encouraged others to fast over 30 days yet had never documented even one 24 hr fast of his own in all his 5 plus years here?
in fact just before he became offended - a behavior one exhibits when one wants to aggressively stop an inquiry - i was going to ask whether he'd ever considered (now that Science has more info) that he may have only had MBL (monoclonal B-cell lymphocytosis) a precursor to B-cell lymphocytic leukemia which 3% of the population have but which rarely progresses into a full blown leukemia. in fact there are 4 basic types of leukemia and many subgroups, yet Chris doesn't even know which one he had! ??? i find that strange indeed.
so no, mighty.proud.one, unlike you, i do not blindly accept anyone's cyber-word for anything let alone that fasting cured an *undocumented* cancer and therefore find it quite obscene to have my perfectly reasonable inquiries called "relentless" "obnoxious" "attacks" as you did.
in fact if it weren't for the mass of gullible sycophants mindlessly eager to 'leap' to the defense of their wannabe guru, guide, master, leader, despot, without a skerrick of evidence for their claims, most power tripping BS artists wouldn't have an army to back them. its only because there's always been a mass of "useful idiots" (google it, its a well known phenomena) willing to jump on someone elses shonky band wagon and ride like a screaming banshee into battle (in an attempt to SHUT OTHERS UP) that we fail to become an intelligent civilized well informed species.
...so please calm down mighty.proud.one. thats the detox you really need to work on (the most important) it frees the body to look after itself unburdened by knee-jerk emotional reactions and silly puppy loyalties in a world where we now have a vast reservoir of documented data to research, cross reference, examine and explore experientially.
here's another probably unwanted fact:
fasting is FORCING especially when you go as far as you did with it (wreaking your heart exercising excessively too soon after) and you the marathoner of forcing should also know: if one is not fasting involuntarily the way a sick animal does, then its FORCE plain and simple. if it wasn't there'd be no need to warn about its dangers, no need for fasting gurus, no need for forums like this, and no need to behave like a freaked out bigot defending unsubstantiated claims.
forcing the body to cannibalize itself is not something to beat one's chest about on a forum mighty.proud.one. "know thyself" and that human aggression, domination and pride is behind it.
as a suggestion; instead of repeatedly taking extreme measures to restore and maintain the health of your body, try being sensible from the get go. applied knowledge kindness and common sense is really all you need.
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
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This is a reply to # 1,652,564actualhealth,
The question of facts.
The sky is blue and grass is green, and Nature provided a near-panacea for all of its animals.
Unless you would like to question the authority of God and Nature perhaps?
Chrisb1.- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
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This is a reply to # 1,652,567chrisb1 wrote: "The sky is blue and grass is green"
they aren't actually, they only appear that way to the human retina. in fact our color vision is inferior to many species. altho the light waves are the same the adaption of the senses has evolved very different perceptions of color.
"and Nature provided a near-panacea for all of its animals."
sure, until sleep walking humanity came along and stomped all over it.
"Unless you would like to question the authority of God and Nature perhaps?"
goodness its been my favorite hobby for 40 years to question the validity of every short sighted concept of divinity [and lack of respect for nature] that humankind has indulged in since standing on two feet. and i cherish having a brain evolved enough to do this.
is it possible chris, that its still beyond youre comprehension that there exists in Nature, on this actual tangible verdant planet, human beings unlike yourself, that are absolutely delighted to be here as natural flesh and blood bodies *only* completely and gloriously free of any need for a mentally and emotionally mind numbing conceptualization of god?
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,450
This is a reply to # 1,652,574Advertisement
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actualhealth,
it is only right and proper to question things you do not understand, and where your quest for proof is a laudable one; however, fasting has rarely been subjected to any scientific scrutiny (in the absence of monetary gain) and in the absence of this, we have to rely on the trials and experiences of those who have gone before us.
The overwhelming documented evidence from qualified health-practitioners is that fasting is very successful in the recovery from disease, and where all other avenues of health-recovery have largely failed previously.
This is why alternatives exist and the reason Curezone exists at all: the failure of Mainstream Medicine in the cure of chronic disease, and especially so with their protocols in cancer treatment.
It appears that you have an argumentative nature.
Nature exists of course, and that anyone's conceptualization of God is subjective, but you should have understood the thrust of my message without resorting to being pedantic and flippant.
Unless you are here for the purpose of this forum (water-fasting-support) then you should realize that you do not belong.
Do some independent research on fasting and discover the benefits of fasting and detoxification for yourself, and then return where we may be able to have a more intelligible discussion.
Chrisb1.
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,898
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,652,611Chrisb1 wrote: "you should realize that you do not belong."
'I' do not belong? surely you mean the subject? in fact this type of personal response is exactly what i've been saying all along. to wit: operate primarily from a emotional herd instinct mid-brain and you won't be able to think sensibly before you speak.
there is a more important form of detoxing that the average human being has yet to turn their attention to - and no i don't mean stop thinking as the spiritually inclined have advocated for the past 10,000 violent years - i mean use the neo-cortex (reflective intelligence like no other animal can) to examine those knee jerk emotional repulsions and SEE what they do to the nervous system. healthy bodies don't stay that way when ancient emotional 'belonging' programs (herd instincts etc) are jerking it around. haven't you figured out yet that they are the root cause of all wars? Slow Chris, slow.
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,898
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,450
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,475
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,470
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,561
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,574
This is a reply to # 1,652,514actualhealth,
yes I am being defensive, because you have placed me into that position by placing doubts on my word and credibility.
For example.
Your comment..............
"the reason i ask is because you often write about this event in your life that has no documented evidence as tho it positively confirms that Water Fasting cured your leukemia and can cure cancer".
AND..........
"but what I'm more curious about is why, with so little evidence did you choose to be absolutely sure that you DID HAVE a monoclonal malignancy, when without even a memory of the details, there is an EQUAL possibility that you did NOT HAVE blood cancer and could have simply been misdiagnosed"?
As I have said previously, the diagnosis was made by my local main hospital and confirmed via appropriate tests at a separate Laboratory affiliated with another main hospital within the same County.
The diagnosis was made on the basis of clinical tests and the results of those tests.
By casting doubts on the authenticity and accuracy of my diagnosis, and the means of that cure, forms the basis that I am not telling the truth, and therefore my comments were appropriate and entirely relevant.
I am left wondering why you are participating in a forum that offers support in water-only-fasting, by casting doubts and skepticism on the fasting process in dealing with toxemia and the symptoms that arise as a result of this elimination process.
Scientific proof or the perception of this proof may be lacking, but proof is not required for the vast majority of people who have successfully abided by its principles and that work in practice................
Dr Joel Fuhrman MD...............
"To regain normalcy or health, individuals suffering from chronic illnesses must rid their systems of the burdens of toxic material and excesses, such as fatty or swollen tissues or atherosclerotic plaque. It may be possible, over
time, to eliminate the excesses while on a restricted diet that calls for taking in foods that support the body. Fasting, however, offers a much more efficient means of accomplishing healing that is dependent on the elimination of retained waste. This is because fasting gives the body an opportunity to focus completely on the elimination of the waste deposits and the purification of its tissues that are necessary to reach a recovered state of health".
in FASTING AND EATING FOR HEALTH.
This conversation can continue if you like, but you are effectively preaching to the converted in the belief that toxemia, or retained metabolic wastes are a reality, and for a variety of reasons, and that fasting is the only effective way of eliminating this potential cause of ill-health and disease and improving ones health par-excellence.
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- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,575
This is a reply to # 1,652,560chrisb1 wrote: yes I am being defensive, because you have placed me into that position by placing doubts on my word and credibility.
"because I" ? oh pulease. my mother used to use the same poor victim me evasion tactics with her children and robbed herself of many sensible mind expanding discussions with them. and were it not that she would invariably self-mutilate her own emotional nervous system as you did - which is why i bowed out of this discussion - stunting her cognition in the process, i would not have had to refrain from explaining calmly and with no intention of offending to:
stop blaming others for your own self-inflicted suffering. no weapons were brandished other than your own imaginary persecution complex. why be so offended every time someone sensibly and harmlessly exercises their right to doubt when they read that the curing of an unrecorded leukemia is 'constantly' being used by a self proclaimed fasting expert to validate the benefits of fasting?
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,614
This is a reply to # 1,652,608actualhealth,
then you should accept my version of events after the details have been posted, and where this failure of acceptance would be a private matter for you.
You are at liberty to believe or not, and where it is unfortunate that I am unable to corroborate my story and for the reasons I have already given.
I have already explained my position on being defensive. That should suffice, unless you are unable to comprehend those reasons.
Enough said and let that be the end of the matter.
Chrisb1.
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,614
- Re: biological facts nothingbetter
14 y
11,540
This is a reply to # 1,652,560"I am left wondering why two people such as yourself and the member nothingbetter, are participating in a forum that offers support in water-only-fasting, by casting doubts and skepticism on the fasting process in dealing with toxemia and the symptoms that arise as a result of this elimination process."
Please don't lump me in with ActualHealth - I in no way support his/her inquiry into your medical past (which for what its worth I actually think is extremely rude and you've been more than indulgent in).
I also have doubt about the tremendous health benefits of fasting. In fact, I am as you know, currently fasting right now and am on my 11th day of a water fast. That's why I'm on the Water Fasting forum.
I would also have to add though, that while you should never have to defend your personal life story against not-so-subtle attempts to discredit it, it is not fair to propose a medical theory that has tremendous potential impacts on people's lives and behavior - and then imply that doubts and skepticism towards it are somehow illegitimate. Questioning and critically evaluating medical claims is really important, if we didn't question them we'd be popping pills relying on doctors guess work and certainly not fasting (a practice which the majority of doctors do not endorse to say the least).
In any case there was and is absolutely no hostility in my questions; fasting is something I believe in (and am *doing*) and I profoundly appreciate you're contributions and assistance both directly to myself and to the community here, ChrisB. Yes I am skeptical of the toxima theory, though I prefer to think of it as retaining a critical stance - but would you like it any other way? I am certainly open to discussing it, I am not being dismissive. Accepting anyone's statement's about empirical claims without inquiry into their verification is a road to dogma and if you can accept one set of dogma you'll apt to accept another.Advertisement
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- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,455
This is a reply to # 1,652,637nothingbetter,
I believe an apology is in order.
My mistake.
I have corrected/edited my post that stated your involvement with actualhealth.
Chrisb1.
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,455
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,575
- Re: biological facts Mighty.Sun.Tzu
14 y
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- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
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- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,922
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
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- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
11,936
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- Re: biological facts nothingbetter
14 y
11,544
This is a reply to # 1,651,952There are two separate questions here that have to be disentangled:
1. Does it work?
2. Why does it work?
The answer to the first question is clearly yes, fasting increases health and it shifts the metabolism from a carbohydrate based metabolism to a fat based metabolism, sparing muscle tissue while consuming adipose tissue.
But the fact that the above is true and well documented in no way proves or, even in and of its self, provides particularly strong evidence, for the theory that it improves health by cleansing the body of "toxins" that the body is unable to rid itself of otherwise.
Maybe people are healthier after a fast just because they're leaner - they have a superior fat to muscle ratio, and the body consumes its own less useful cells such as benign tumors and internal scar tissue - in addition to making use of adipose tissue.
Similarly what people believe to be 'healing crises' where they rid themselves of 'toxins' may be attributable to other biological phenomena associated not with their pre-fast 'toxic' state but with fasting. The most obvious is that these are withdraw syndromes not from toxins consumed as a child or adolescent, but from fat, simple carbohydrates, and caffine consumed recently that produce physical and psychological dependence. They could also be side effects of the well documented metabolic changes undergone during a water fast.
So, in short, to believe that Water Fasts A. produce a positive physical outcome and are healthier than ultra-low calorie diets B. transform the bodies metabolism and physiology, does not entail C. that the health benefits come from removing toxins rather than simply removing unnecessary tissue rapidly and with minimal nutrient and muscle loss.- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,533
This is a reply to # 1,652,233hi nothingbetter,
i have issues with this too.
with so little evidence why are people so quick to 'believe' that every uncomfortable symptom they experience (during fasting) is due to toxins being metabolized or excreted from the body. there's no lab research confirming this AT ALL!
sure theres bio-science research papers on the chemical/ hormonal changes occurring during fasting that account for plenty of them. but to sheet home every ache and pain to detoxing is just plain silly and nothing but a vivid imagination at work ....yet again.
people should be more careful. we only get a crappy life when we believe [imagine] non sense, then we get old and become putty in some cunning person's hands at the slightest BS flattery.
...and we wonder why they don't land!
- Re: biological facts Koldo
14 y
11,793
R
This is a reply to # 1,652,507Advertisement
Organic Detoxification Program
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I'm very much a newcomer in this forum, but I must share Mighty's indignation at actualhealth casting aspertions on ChrisB's integrity, regardless of how much one finds his defeat of cancer incredible. Doing so is unbecoming of forum members, little short of scurrilous, but above all, not conducive to useful debate. The bottom line I think is you either believe him or you don't, and I believe him 100%. His participation in this forum speaks of a person indebted at finding an escape from a death sentence and wanting to help others. Any other reason simply beggars belief.
Also, actualhealth, aren't you confusing hearsay evidence and anecdotal evidence? Hearsay is in fact admissable in certain circumstances in most legal systems - it is in both in the USA and the UK. Surely you mean anecdotal evidence, of which there is an enormous amount, and the forum members here could provide a great deal. Anecdotal evidence, whilst being undocumented, is still convincing. There is plenty of documented evidence that chemotherapy is ineffective and indeed kills people, (and I could give citations should you ask) but its use continues unquestioned and unabated, which calls into question the value of documented proof. Even if there were proof of the mechanisms and efficacy of fasting, would people who "believe" in conventional medicine use it? I doubt it. One is inclined to think that people ultimately believe what they want to believe and that is that. Science could prove the existence of God, but people would still die in poverty and there would still be wars.
Nothingbetter: I think you raise some interesting points, and I believe that if toxins are indeed being excreted then it should be possible to find traces of said toxins being eliminated. But who would fund such a study? I would be willing to contribute, but we'd have to pay for it ourselves. In any event, I don't need proof. When I was fasting, why did I feel like I was being poisoned if in fact it wasn't the release of toxins from my own tissues? To me, it's just common sense. But I think you're right to be skeptical. Again, to me, it's just common sense and I don't need further proof. Before I fasted for the first time, I read a great deal and when I fasted the informtaion proved to be correct. Nothing beats practical experience. I don't need any more proof, but having it wouldn't be a bad thing.
The saddest thing, as far as I am concerned, is that when people form separate groups in issues of this kind, the real search for truth is lost when discussion degenerates into a slanging match between different factions.
Regards,
Koldo.
- Re: biological facts gnulnx
14 y
11,252
This is a reply to # 1,652,507I feel compeleted to jump into this fray.
Disclaimer: I have a BS in Biology, a PhD in Medicinal Chemistry, and I've fastet.
I'm going to start out by saying flat out that actualhealth has no idea what he's talking about.
1) In fact Many hydrophobic toxins do indeed stay in you fat tissue for a very long time. THC and the other 60 or so cannabinoids found in Marijuana are a prime example. Insectisides are another... I'm not even going to sit here and list them all...but if you are interested then you need to know the actual structures and it's relative permeability in a Pampa or Caco2 biological assay. From that we can EASILY predict which compounds/toxins will prefer to stay in hydrophobic fat tissue or in hydrophilic blood.
2) The shear number of people the report success from fasting is better proof that any drug trial I've been associated with. I've been involved in stages 1-3 of drug trials. The number of people that have fasted over the years and found benefit is in the hundreds of thousands. The number of people in an advanced stage drug trial...100's. You trust who you want, but as a pharmaceutical insider I'm telling you flat out that I trust the numbers for fasting far better than the numbers for say...v!agra.
3) Actualhealth what is it you are trying to do here? Are you trying to save us from our own stupidity? Are you here to somehow enlighten all of us as to the way to proper health and happiness? Please realize that you are acting like an obnoxious toxin to this board and the people that are here. You have made your point...although I honestly have no idea why you felt compelled to do so. I mean did you wake up one day and decided I have to tell all these fasters out there that they are wrong and that they are starving themselves? Did you? Please just move on now.
4) Most of the people here fasting have done enough research on their own...and I'd wager that the majority know far more about the risks, benefits, and challenges of a fast than you do.
5) If you have something else to add please do so...if not please go away as you are only clogging up the board for the rest of us.
Thank You.- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,904
This is a reply to # 1,710,473Mmm.... i notice you've only written this one post to curezone so far gnulnx, and only to a debating forum?
i think therefore (least i be wasting my time on a troll, plus having no interest in debate - this thread having been transferred here) i'll just wait, and see whether you plan to make that "BS in Biology" of benefit to the many.
- Re: biological facts gjd1980
11 y
9,324
This is a reply to # 1,711,483Advertisement
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Cleanse your body of toxins and wastes. Feel vibrant and youthful again!
This thread has been dormant for a while, but I think it's appropriate to point out to all that the human body does, as a matter of fact, accumulate toxic materials in its journey through our mostly toxic ecosystem.
Please see below for a bit of evidence:
"DDT's elimination from the body can take some time; its half-life in humans has been estimated at four years. DDE's half-life is estimated at approximately six years.[3] Because of these varying breakdown rates, the proportion of DDT and DDE detected in human tissues can be used as an indication of the length of time since exposure. In areas where DDT exposure has been recent, the DDE/DDT ratio is low, while in areas where substantial time since exposure has passed, the DDE/DDT value is higher. Because DDE is attracted to fat, levels in breast milk are often six to seven times higher in a mother's milk than in her blood."
Taken from - http://www.nrdc.org/breastmilk/chem2.asp
For most, it takes one counterexample to disprove a theory. In this case, the idea that the human body does indeed hold on to multiple known (and likely unknown) foreign substances should galvanize this concept for even the most skeptical of minds.
Furthermore, the idea that DDT exhibits a particular affinity for body fat is very indicative of the reported detoxification claims of fasters. I likely don't need to spell out the widely known fact that ketosis, which is documented during fasting once glycogen reserves are depleted, is the process of using fatty tissue stores as a primary source of energy.
Since we know DDT is stored in fat and that fasting induces Ketosis, it follows that at the very least, fasting would likely induce the detoxification of DDT. When you start stringing this logic together, you see that our bodies are likely warehouses of health compromising substances. Also consider that Mercury poisoning from eating fish is scientific fact. Where do you think the fish store the mercury? Yes, in their "healthy" bodily tissues.
http://water.epa.gov/scitech/swguidance/fishshellfish/outreach/advice_index.cfm
In conclusion, my post should not support nor does it support Chris' claim that Water Fasting cured him of Cancer or even his claim that he had cancer. Both may be complete fabrications. That said, even if he is completely vilified and discredited, fasting cannot be based on a body of evidence that continues to build.
Hope this was helpful for everyone.
- Re: biological facts gjd1980
11 y
9,324
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,904
- Re: biological facts Koldo
14 y
11,793
R
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,533
- Re: biological facts actualhealth
14 y
11,634
- Re: biological facts chrisb1
14 y
12,213
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